Multiplicity

You chose your Lj handle well, if you really don't *get* (as you said in this post (http://www.livejournal.com/users/sosadlyfucked/48270.html#cutid1)) why posting this sort of thing in a community where the majority of members were raped as children is "so offensive".

I think you DO get it, and that you posted this here with deliberate intention to cause pain and distress to people who've already been hurt in hideous ways. Already got thrown out of three communities for posting it, did you? Poor, poor, poor you; artists are always SO misunderstood by those who just don't have your innate sensitivity.

If I were moderator of this community, I'd throw you the hell out too. Not because I personally have a problem with your little image there - unlike a lot of people here, I'm natural multiple, not trauma-induced, and don't have any particular emotional response to dolls - soak 'em in blood, set 'em on fire, whatever, to me they are just plastic. By the way, in case you think you're too avant-garde for the room, doll-abuse as an artistic "statement" was already trite back in the 80's, and calling it "retro" doesn't make it any less trite now.

Nope - I'd throw you out for thinking it's oh-so-cool to "shock people", or, more precisely, to hurt them in the place where they're already wounded, just for your own petty ego-gratification. Two of my best friends in this community are struggling to deal with the lifelong effects of having been raped as babies, Miss Goth Angst, so stick your sanctimonious little "artistic statements" where they best deserve to be stuck - yeah, you're evil, but you're Evil Lite compared to what people here have already been through.

From:

ex-khailitha846.livejournal.com

Go Elenbarathi! (Cheering and hooting and jumping up and down!)

For the record: I am the other friend mentioned in this comment. When I viewed Fucked's post, I mostly felt vague, scartissue dread and sidestepping numbness that is the usual reaction to "triggering" information, coupled with a, "hmmm... that's not it. That doesn't capture it AT ALL." At least not for Us.

When I read Elenbarathi's comment, Ah, then there was life. Actually burst into big fat tears with visions of my grubby little toddlers and catatonic infants hiding in her skirts and saying, "Yeah, So There!" Which was more healing and more valuable to me? Not a hard guess.

My gratitude goes out to you, Elenbarathi, there is no way to express the value and worth of seeing your words validating and defending Us. Thank You, thank you, thank you.

................

My question to Fucked is this: what is your intention here? Have you experienced firsthand a brutal sexual attack as a child? Are you working out your own shit here? We've produced alot of rather horrific art while processing abuse of horrific proportions. But, as a professional artist, I have to ask myself very carefully with each piece what the intention of the piece is, and where it belongs. Much of my process art does not belong in public venues. And I would never, never, put it in a survivor community WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION AND A WARNING LABEL.

If this is your own process art, then it is my feeling you should consider very carefully whether displaying it at all is beneficial for your healing (if this is YOUR stuff and YOUR story, I'd treat with loving care and compassion), and if so, how and to what audience would it's exposure be appropriate. If you are just an artist pretending to express on behalf of those of us who lived the reality you are marketing, I question your ethics and intelligence. If you are a troll, who gets off on shocking and triggering people where they are fragile and most in need of sensitivity, I question your right to exist.

It doesn't seem you are considering carefully or with integrity either the function of your piece or its proper audience. And on behalf of all the scarred, broken and bleeding babies in me.... You Have No Right To Speak Our Truth... You have no right to affiliate yourself with those who are working through, healing, and surviving the kind of abuse you so clumsily portray. To simply post your image without an explanation, without a cut, without a warning, leads me to believe you are not serving Our interests or Our issues. Your lack of sensitivity, failure to ask permission, and co-opting of other's pain for your own agenda denies my struggle rather than validates it.

.....................

Still dancing and hugging Elenbarathi.

".....never underestimate the power of fighting for the kids."

Takke.

From:

jinxtigr.livejournal.com

Elenbarathi speaks for me.
I'm not a multiple myself- I've earned my place here by being involved with someone who is, and living up to that.
Sure, have your 'victory' of getting people to respond, because frankly giving the message to others here that tweaking them out for no useful reason is WRONG... is more important than 'winning' against 'you'. Here's your response post: you need to grow the hell up, and yeah- your power to upset isn't as great as you'd think. Power to annoy is quite intense- but then, that's not as much fun, is it?
Have a nice day.

From:

What exactly WERE your intentions in posting to this communtity?
I am going to give you a the benefit of the doubt, and assume your intention was not to get a kick out of hurting people. It appears you werent thinking of others at all, only of yourself.
If you thought about it at all, you would know this is about the last community on earth that needs to be educated about the frequency with which teenagers and children are raped.
I am one of the friends elenbarathi mentioned. I was raped at an extremely young age. And I can tell you that your image, which you tried to make as horrifying as possible, was a tiptoe through the tulips compared to what I think, feel, and visualise in the course of my average day. When I see your image, I feel tense, but mostly contemptuous..'oh, so THAT"s supposed to be unbearable for someone like me, is it?"
This is a community filled with rape victims, and I'm sure many are, like me, just trying to make it through the day. Really. I am just trying to survive through the day, to stay alive for tommorow. I can be traumatised by things that ordinary people would consider to be a nonissue, and I'll be DAMNED, Ms. So Sadly Fucked, if I am going to let you add a drop to the ocean that is already crushing me.
If you had shared something personal about yourself, about something you found difficult to endure, I would have gladly tolerated it, in the interests of helping a fellow traveler cope.
But for god's sake, dont put this communtity through still more anxiety or misery, for the sake of an art piece. Post it to a forum of republican men, or the American Psychiatric Association, or something. Leave us alone with this sort of thing.

From:

sexylittleone.livejournal.com

*nods to Elenbarathi* Well said & I agree wholeheartedly with you. I, too, am a victim of rape ... among other things. It was inside but does that make it any less real? any less painful? no. Ms Angst probably couldn't grasp how real that is to Me and how much (and how often) I am told (tho never directly) by shrinks & ordinary ppl that it doesnn't count b/c it wasn't an outside raping & beating.

I rarely swear (ppl i know can probably count on one hand the number of times I've made epithets) but here I shall: sosadlygofuckyourself.

El

From:

storyteller2001.livejournal.com

Hi El.

Just wanted to say that yes, it does count. Inside is just as real as outside for those of us who live there. And more real for some.

I'm sorry you were hurt, inside or out.

storyteller

From:

shadowechoes.livejournal.com

I agree with what everyone else has said here. I'm glad people spoke up about this unlike at the other multiple community you posted this at with your other journal.

From:

pengke.livejournal.com

I agree that it would be cruel if she posted this to a rape survivor's group and that it was probably in poor taste to post it here.

Your reactions to it however I can not understand. Many of you have argued and fought whenever someone suggested spoilering and censoring you but here you are trying to do the same thing to her. (And don't you think naming it "the rape victim series" should count as a spoiler?)

This is not a support group. She shouldn't be expected to look at a group about multiplicity and assume that everyone here has been raped and traumatised. This community is not like fragmentedminds (where ironically enough no one protested the post.) This isn't a "safe" place. You're the one responsible for making sure you don't view things that will upset you, not her.

From:

"Many of you have argued and fought whenever someone suggested spoilering and censoring you"

When you say "many of you", to whom are you referring? Your post here is in reply to mine, but I have not "argued and fought" about this issue, nor posted about it at all (nor has my 'brother' Duathir.) Do you mean

khailitha, or

jinxtiger, or

tir_nan_og? They have not done so either. The others who have posted to this thread, I have not followed so closely, so can't say what arguments they may have been involved in. However, if you are talking to a specific person, or a specific set of people, perhaps you ought to address your remarks specifically to them, rather than assuming that those who have posted here are part of some sort of group-mind.

"This is not a support group" - no? What is it, then? It's not specifically a rape-survivor support group, no, but if you have not observed the fact that a great many people here identify themselves as trauma-induced multiple, then you haven't been paying attention. If you're not aware of the way in which trauma-induced multiplicity commonly happens, then you really haven't been paying attention.

Isn't it interesting how, whenever people get hurt, there's always someone showing up to defend the "rights" of the person who hurt them, and to tell them that it's their own fault they got hurt, that they're too sensitive, and that they had no right to expect not to be hurt, or to object to it when they were?

Isn't it interesting how often that 'someone' in this particular community is you?

From:

"This is not a support group" - no? What is it, then? It's not specifically a rape-survivor support group, no, but if you have not observed the fact that a great many people here identify themselves as trauma-induced multiple, then you haven't been paying attention.

Then the name needs to be changed. Multiplicity is too inclusive, if it is primarily for trauma-induced multiples. If that's the case we no longer belong here and neither do

ksol1460 and a great many of our friends who post here. Calling it "multiplicity" without the specific caveat that it is primarily for trauma-induced multiples (not just multiples who have been abused-- trauma-created) is discriminatory and misleading.

From:

ksol1460.livejournal.com

At one time, the purpose of this group was to discuss multiplicity in an uncensored format similar to the old darkpersonalities list (http://www.topica.com/lists/darkpersonalities), which is still active over at topica.

As such, trauma-based multiples and the like were welcome, but the community itself did not exist solely as a support group for them.

Since the assistant manager added words like "abuse survivors" and "dysfunctionality" to the interest list, the community has been moving in that direction, as people end up here having done interest searches on those topics.

This is the second time that a member has referred to this community as being based on traumatic experience. As Shiu points out, the name of the community needs to be changed if the majority of community members want for it to become a place specifically for abuse-origin multiples.

From:

'Abuse origin?' I dont think we need to hammer out that distinction. I seem to recall a discussion here about a month ago, where nature versus lack of nurture came up, and a fair ammount of people said that they had trauma in their backgrounds, but feel they would have been multiple anyway.
I dont think we need to get into a big hooha about changing Multiplicity or more rigorous censorship. It was taken care of amongst ourselves without any outside rules. It was really rather personal rather than something that needs to be taken into account as far as the tone of the community in general.
Some of us found that doll PARTICULARLY heinous. I've never uttered a peep about something being gratuitous for a particular community before, but that did it. It was really a personal sort of thing. Elenbarathi knew I and another close friend were going to have a hard time with it, and so she spoke her mind in her firm, clear way. I was very troubled because I, in turn, anticipated my friend seeing it, and it seemed like the sort of thing she would be particularly vulnerable to seeing.
Again, what made it more unacceptable was the fact that it seemed to be primarily an art piece, or motivated by darker intentions, as Jinx replied. (The art itself wasnt bad, by the way.)
I think this particular wave of responses by a group of close-knit friends need not bode changes for the house rules of this community, John Shao.

From:

I don't believe John was talking about changing the community rules. In fact I can't see where he said they ought to be. He said the name ought to be changed if the majority of systems here identify as being trauma-created, which I had been the first one to propose-- if the focus is going to be on protecting people from getting triggered due to things which remind them of past traumas, it's not a place we're going to feel welcome in.

Likewise, what you perceive here is also a wave of responses by a group of close-knit friends. None of us have the power to effect change in the rules of the community, as we are not mods, even if we had wanted to.

From:

You are right. I had assumed a change of name would mean a change of bylaws as well.
The thing that really attracts me to this community is that it is a crossroads for all kinds of multiples, and the entire range of thought regarding multiplicity itself. We have aspie multiples, otherkin, simply natural multiples, natural with trauma as a kicker..the whole gamut, right up to and including trauma ORIGIN and the whole medicalised DID model. As such, we are right on the front lines of many battles. We dicker about philosophy, ideology, psychiatry and neurology, and ethics. We have to plod through so much swampy ground to discuss these wildly divergent views of ourselves.
To get to the point, I would be extremely sorry if you and ksol no longer felt welcome in the community because of this particular wave of feeling. An expression of strong emotions by multiples with a trauma background, over one particular image, is not a signal that you should be on your merry way. For my own part, I would be shocked if the same reaction to an image would ever happen again..you can quote me on that. It was a particularly effective, highly specific, completely ill timed image. We all have our achilles heels.

From:

'Abuse origin?' I dont think we need to hammer out that distinction. I seem to recall a discussion here about a month ago, where nature versus lack of nurture came up, and a fair ammount of people said that they had trauma in their backgrounds, but feel they would have been multiple anyway.

FWIW, I do think it's important that the distinction be made between people who feel they are multiple and happen to be abuse survivors, and people who feel they started out as one person who split due to trauma. The fact is that the public, by and large, thinks that ALL multiples are the latter. We feel it is important to make distinctions of "The fact that I was abused is not why I am multiple" (or even "I was abused -because- I was multiple," which is far more common than most people generally let on).

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Yes. Absolutely.

From:

*shrugs* Cast your eyes up to the top there; note that the words "I'm natural multiple, not trauma-induced" appear in my original post. That fact doesn't prevent me from being aware of the vulnerabilities of others here who aren't so fortunate.

Perhaps the name of the community needs to be changed to something like "gruesomegothart", if the majority of people in this community feel that this is an appropriate place for that sort of thing to be posted. Is

sosadlyfucked multiple herself? We don't know, because she hasn't said. Has she ever posted here before? Don't think so. Why, then, would she come to this community to post such a thing? If multiplicity and abuse-survivorship are in no way related, isn't her post off-topic?

From:

She was posting here at the time I first began livejournal, under another name.
(I happen to remember this from links through another multiple community..it is not that I'm so involved I assiduously researched.)
So, possibly multiple as well. The conflicts around this image wouldnt be resolved by wether she were singlet or not, I'm afraid.

From:

sosadlyfucked.livejournal.com

I really should just delete this entry. It's just not dropping. I thought that the community leader would have deleted it by now, because if it's doing so much harm, then what good would it do to keep arguing and getting upset over it. If it was a mistake, just delete it and drop it.

I happen to love this community. I have posted here on numerous occassions. I have about 10 livejournals (http://www.livejournal.com/users/absinthestalker/friends) because I use one for different aspects of my personality. I don't claim to be multiple, although I have had therapists suspect, investigate and even diagnose me as such. Among other things. But, I find that to be irrelevant. Psychotherapy, in itself, is flawed and I have little faith in it. I've been in therapy since I was 15, institutionalized 4 times and taken everything from old-new anti-depressants to anti-psychotics to anticonvulsants. I have a chronic stomach disorder which has caused me chronic pain my entire life. I gave up on therapy when they told me my only option left was ECT. I don't know if any of this bullshit matters, but since you brought up my credibility, there you go. Honestly, I think it's completely irrelevant and off the subject. In fact, I'm almost disgusted at sharing this because I don't even tell hardly any of my friends about these details.

As for my intention, I already stated it. I wanted to share my art with individuals I thought would appreciate it on some level or another. I have thought about it (being that I've never posted a video before EVER)... I really should have used a different name than sosadlyfucked. I should have used fragileintimacy because the video belonged to her to begin with. I also suspect I shouldn't have put rape statistics with the image.

From:

sosadlyfucked.livejournal.com

OR... for this particular community, I probably should have shared something about what the image portrayed to me. Like she said "an artist's statement." I don't claim to be an artist really. I'm just beginning to learn how to create such mediums. I honestly know nothing about art or the culture/norms/expectations that go with it.

I already apologized in the beginning of all this because I realized that I offended someone. Like I said, that was never my intention. I don't care so much about people insulting me because I'm not personally involved with anyone to really feel there is any validity. It does kinda hurt to be compared to a trendy wanna-be shock goth chick. But, I DO acknowledge that my naivety towards the presentation of my art was harmful (for at least one or two people) and I apologize for that again. Don't mistakenly think that I don't respect you. But forgive me for not being good at it.

I don't even post about this anymore because I don't feel my words really even matter. The issue seems beyond me. Like I've given birth to something so evil that apologies or shame means nothing compared to the act itself. I feel my apologies and explanations are worthless now.

I confess my art isn't good by any normal standard. I probably shouldn't be posting my art at all at this point. This entire experience has discouraged me greatly in trusting my own ability to share my art.

From:

"I confess my art isnt good by any normal standard.."
Actually, I thought it was pretty effective, and aesthetically had appeal. I have no problem detaching from my more personalised and visceral reaction in order to say that.
You certainly havent given birth to anything so evil that apologies or shame are worthless. We saw a powerful image and have been having an intense discussion about powerful images, and the vulnerability of a segment of the multiple population. This too shall pass.
I hope you continue with your art, and I apologise, if I have said anything to personally hurt your feelings. There are so many things to learn in the process of our relating to one another, that it is impossible to do everything perfectly.

From:

I didn't actually "bring up your credibility"; certainly did not ask for the personal details of your medical or psychiatric history. The questions I raised were, one, whether you are multiple; two, whether you had ever posted here before; three, if "no" to both, what were you doing coming here posting that image?

So, okay, your answers to the first two questions are somewhat ambiguous - you don't claim to be multiple but some other people have thought you might be, and you have posted here before but under different user-names - but that's good enough for me. I acknowledge that you do have a right to be here, and are not just some "trendy wanna-be shock goth chick" coming in to poke the weirdos. That would have been clearer if you'd posted under a handle you were known by here, and/or had said something about who you are and why you were posting the image, but at least it is clear now.

What pissed me off more than the image itself was your livejournal post about "why is this so offensive?", and especially the prevailing attitude expressed there, that anyone who would find it offensive needs to seek professional help. I think it's safe to say that most of those here who would find it offensive have already sought professional help, and in many cases have found only "professional harm" instead. Comments about belief in the resilience of the human spirit are not to the point either - belief in the resilience of human flesh doesn't give one the right to either cut people up or to discount their protests about having been cut on the grounds that they will probably heal eventually.

I realize that you are not responsible for the remarks or attitudes of people who post to your Lj. However, until now, you had not made any apology in this community about having hurt or upset people (however accidentally), nor was there any apology on your Lj, where the attitude expressed seemed to be "Ha ha, look how shocking I am; I got thrown out of three communities (of losers) just for this." Apologies and explanations are never worthless, but one does have to actually make them in order for them to have worth. Now that you have made some, I accept them, and apologize in turn for mistaking your intentions and hurting your feelings.

As for your art... the purpose of art is to express emotion in such a way that an emotional response is elicited in its audience. It's not necessarily going to be a good, happy, positive response - actually, it would be silly to expect such a response to an image of pain and distress, even from people who have not personally experienced the sort of pain and distress expressed in the image. You got more emotional response here than you bargained for, is all. It doesn't mean your art is evil; it just means (as

khailitha explained on your Lj) that you need to consider your choice of venue more carefully.

I am a poet and musician rather than a visual artist, but I too have some work that I would not share because the emotion it would elicit would be unrelieved pain. It doesn't mean it's bad work - it succeeds quite well as art, meaning it does what art is supposed to do very effectively - but it would not be responsible of me to inflict more pain on people who may already have as much as they can bear.

From:

spookshow-girl.livejournal.com

Because I read "a great many", which is vague, but distinctly not the same thing as primarily.

Just my thought on the matter.

--Her

From:

ex-khailitha846.livejournal.com

Your comments are duly noted and I'll consider myself called to task.

I was wrong. Sosadly did use a cut, and a title, although she included no personal note or "artist's statement", if you will. I was also inaccurate when I said that this was a survivor community. It is not. It is a community of people who are working through the entire spectrum of being multiple. Part of that spectrum, as Elenbarathi says, includes "trauma induced" or "trauma involved" multiples and, consequently, a percentage of this community is comprised of people who have experienced life-threatening rapes.

If, as you note, this community has nothing to do with the issues of early childhood abuse and the effects of sexual trauma on young victims, why do you suppose that sosadly posted her image here at all? I think it was exactly the link between many multiples and sexual violence issues that caused her to post here. Because of this, it DOES become an issue of consideration, and appropriateness for those of us in this community most closely linked to the topic in which she is rubbing our noses.

I applaud your support of sosadly's freedom of expression. And I usually enjoy reading what you have to say. Please realize that the rest of us are simply utilizing our freedom of expression in this forum to communicate our responses to sosadly's choice of venue and lack of personal communication. As an artist, (although this piece is quite media driven and doesn't quite fit into the category of "fine" art or "self-expression") sosadly should be aware that her work will cause many reactions, and that to effectively disseminate her message, she should choose her intended audiences with care. As an artist, she should be willing, even OBLIGATED, to engage in a discussion of her work and to consider carefully the function, purpose, and appropriate placement for her art. (I commented more along this vein to her personal LJ... if you're interested in looking there.)

I don't think it was an accident she posted in this community. I think that she chose it specifically because of the connection between many multiples and rape. And I think that everyone in this community has a right to express to her their feelings about what she posted. As do you. As you point out, this isn't a "safe" place... not even for sosadly, eh? And we all learn and grow here, hopefully, by discussion and free expression. Who is to say that the experience I had of feeling defended and validated by Elenbarathi (incredibly healing for Us), and sosadly's experience of having an open forum critique of her choice of venue, and your experience of more closely defining what this space means to YOU, are not all valuable and exactly fulfilling the function of this space?

Namaste.

From:

Adding to what was said earlier by

pengke: I had not been under the impression that most of the people in this group had been abused/raped or were struggling to deal with unresolved issues caused by sexual abuse. It seems to me that if most people in here are dealing with problems from having been raped as children, you should call it an abuse survivors' support group rather than multiplicity.

From:

We dont necessarily come here to deal with such problems. We, that is, the We of my system, come here for discussions about real life joys and difficulties involving multiplicity, and the chance to step outside of the disease model of it in our discussions.
It would be absurd for multiples with a history of trauma to be belittled by multiples who had a great childhood, and vice versa. (Luckily we are somewhat civilized in this community.)
I am not out to prove that multiplicity is caused by trauma, either. In fact, I dont believe that at all.
Singlets also deal with issues of abuse. I dont know what percentage of multiples do, nor do I care to make a study of it. But multiples who struggle with issues of abuse/trauma are decidedly present, and our reactions to some things might seem slightly foriegn to you. It is just another difference to contend with, among many.

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You know this is not specifically directed at you, but I have to say I'm getting pretty tired of the assumption that "not trauma-induced" means "no trauma in past."

Just saying, is all.

From:

You're right. It would be an obnoxious to assume that your life has been all roses, just because you havent dished out anything to the opposite effect..which, after all, would be very personal.
Unless someone blurts out specific information about themselves, I tend not to wonder about that information or try to speculate or second guess. It is a common human failure to take things very much at face value, but perhaps We do it a bit more than most.

From:

spookshow-girl.livejournal.com

Seriously. Why. If I for some reason only know rape survivors, put them all in a group on LJ, to discuss the finer points of "El Phantasmo and the Chicken Run Blast-o-rama" should it need to be called an abuse survivors' support group?

This group is for multiples of any stripe to discuss their multiplicity. Just because the distribution is uneven (or by your perception unfavorable) doesn't mean that we have to change the name, or purpose of the group.

Aren't we a little over-sensitive on the topic of not being trauma-based? *laughs* Can't even break bread with trauma-based multis? *laughs more*

What's the matter, afraid you'll catch something?

--Me

From:

jinxtigr.livejournal.com

Do I have to make it even clearer?
YHBT
HTH
HAND
Sorry, folks- I don't buy that this is a real poster. I could be wrong, but some of the arguments on the person's homepage don't ring true for a tormented or an avantgarde artist. They do, however, fit 'troll' with great effectiveness, right down to the deft use of philosophizing along with disclaiming of responsibility- claim to have no idea the troll was shocking in any way, salt with freedom-of-speech rhetoric, add a few jabs at likely targets and sit back and watch the flames back and forth.
YHBT.

From:

ex-khailitha846.livejournal.com

Uh.. damn. I don't know what your acronyms mean.

Sorry for my ignorance, but, for me, would you make it clearer?

I really, really appreciate your presence here, BTW. (That's one I DO know.) I'm not sure I understand exactly all the Troll connotations, being fairly wet-behind-the-ears when it comes to internet communications.

Thanks! and Hugs! and hope the inspection went well! We're gonna try to comment to your latest post after I've done all the Mom stuff that is descending upon me.

(Time to go pick up the daughter.)

Becca & Co

From:

ksol1460.livejournal.com

We all kind of liked the video in the sense that it can be used to educate the public. Our Children especially appreciate seeing things like this because "it shows what really happens".

We did wonder what it was doing in a community about multiplicity, though.

From: