Hola

[changelyng14.livejournal.com]

My apologies for asking about a charged and likely tired subject, but there's something I need to know.
This isn't really something we are considering but it's about integration.

I've heard huge amounts of information about it, but the one and only question I care about gets me evasive fantastic-sounding answers that have little to do with, in my mind, the question.

If my system hired some quack to 'integrate' us, and he was successful. What EXACTLY will happen?
will I exist? Will my mates exist? will we really be this exciting 'blend' of all of us? or is that just what quacks tell splits to make splits like the idea?
I 'mix' with my mates quite alot, and the 'whatever' that we become is no more them then me. Is that what integration does?
Is it normal for a split to fear death in face of integration in the same way its 'normal' for a singlet to fear death when their head is on a chopping block?
Is a 'being' post-integrated a reliable source to explain what happened to them? Are there any post-integrates willing to explain what they've figured out about it in the sort of language I've gotten used to?

I'm very ignorant of this topic, I rarely find anything on the subject but things written to a singlet audience.

Thanks

Synch of Changelyng

Comments

[kangetsuhime.livejournal.com]

Of course it's normal to fear death. It's kind of odd not to.

I have approx 0 experience with splits and integration. What happens is anybody's guess. It might be different for every system.

The idea of integration is that a person will be as they were before they split. This is of course, only an idea, and only one that could apply to people who are splits in the first place.

[gryphons.livejournal.com]

ummm.. that's a pretty charged/volitile topic..

We're against intergration.. so a lot of our answers tend to be slanted.. but here's what we've read/heard/ seen/felt

as far as what exactly will happen? people have described it lots of different ways.. some see it as death.. some see it as being totally co-conscious all the time.. so how you guys interpret it will probably determine how it works in your house.. We've tried intergration.. for us it was like death.. and it didn't last.. and when it ended.. it wasn't pretty.
-Is it normal to fear death in the face of intergration? I would imagine so.. Any soul would fear loosing it's identity.. and all they've done to "join" with another or intergrate.. or any other term people use for it.
-Is being"post-intergrated" a reliable source?*shrugs* we hated how it felt.. we've read other accounts where you'd think intergration is the best thing since the invetion of chocolate.. and at least one social woerk's website we found said that her/their intergration was the best thing and only result that any household should strive for.. (which is a load of horsekaka in our eyes.) but there it is.

sorry this is so long.. but like I said it's a loaded topic and one we feel pretty strong about.
-Micah

[changelyng14.livejournal.com]

ooooooo! there and back again?

Thanks for the reply.

I may be paranoid but maybe brainwashing is a key part of integration? (not that some don't need their brains washed from time to time :p) but the two processes seem to have at least some in common.

If i was a famous shrink and some split walked into my office, all my wisdom, expertise, and training would be to do what i try to do for all my patients. make them 'normal' like everyone else, ie: one-brain-one-body in this case.
Integration certainly seems to do that, but its a little convenient imo.

thanks for the reply. heh, longer plz. Im sure ill be getting flamed soon for my length's tho. I've heard the arguments for it, but when I stand up to my friends whom I value, that my road isn't integration. I'd like to be able to sound convincing when I do my integration=death thing for them.

But if I'm the fool, maybe I should do this :P

[kangetsuhime.livejournal.com]

..... what makes you think the goal of shrinks is to make you normal? o.O

[changelyng14.livejournal.com]

I kind of assumed it, honestly.

my shrink is all about 'functional', and is also rather respectful. cares whom we be etc. likes the goal of 'functional', doesnt do hypnotism, and is curiously uneducated on integration in light of his caseload who are split.

Historical Psychology has resorted to some bizzarre methods to try to 'fix' various 'problems' and imo, tend to shed doubt as to weather or not they have 'patients' and 'humans' in the same category from time to time. but MPD has been put on the same list of some rather creepy sounding states of being.

My happy shrink seems very interested in seeing each of us become 'normal' or, rather, less burdened with issues at least.
The mad mad movie scientist walks about with a butcherknife collecting body parts from his victims trying to make the ideal superhuman.
The voice of the Psychologists who are currently actively debating in the Psychology Journals as to whether MPD is really really real and if it should be taken seriously. The MD someone-someone i loosely quote as saying the "psychologist who doesn't consider complete integration as the only treatment for (mpd) lacks imagination" (my apologies for a lack of a proper source)
This fellow, in his mind, is fighting for the big cure. He doesn't believe I'm real, nor that I'm human, nor that my existance matters. I'm not the patient with a problem. I be one of the problems stopping this system from being a happy single. in his way, he sincerely hopes to help the 'me' he is so sure is in here somewhere.

He can kiss my wrinkly ass, but I do respect that it is his goal to be helpful. :)

Forgive me. I'm a huge lover of debate and can take nearly any side of any coin. I'm a fanatic of the truth, painful or not. and I tear everything apart with a rabidness that makes my system worry.
I have to know why integration is not my road. I have to know everything that can be known about it, and be able to make every argue for or against it, before I can, in my mind, be done with it.

My whole system isn't that way, just me and mania. especially when we join :P

I'm driven to know, and im having trouble finding educated sources on the matter. this group clearly lives it, and odviously doesn't feel that they need a doctor to allow them to diagnose themself, wipe their derrier, nor anything else and thats huge to me. thanks :P

[kangetsuhime.livejournal.com]

.... LJ ate my reply. I'll try again later when that doesn't make me want to smash the monitor in.

I hate LJ.

(Short form: Psychologists are meant to cure disorders, not make you normal. Unfortunately the make you normal one is the one a lot of people thing is what it should be.)

[changelyng14.livejournal.com]

ahhh....

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately the make you normal one is the one a lot of people thing is what it should be.)

Including far too many mental health professionals. The mental health industry is so politicized that their definitions of "normal" and "disorder" cannot be trusted.

Mental health professionals have always been in the business of making people normal in the sense that therapy is meant to help us adjust to societal norms, rather than the other way around. For a brief time in the 1960s and 70s, there was a movement in psychiatry against this type of thinking, but it fell by the wayside and became assimilated into the AHP, who are no longer taken seriously thanks to their toasterish extremes.

[kangetsuhime.livejournal.com]

It's crap I know. The ethical and logical defenitions of a good psychologist, and 'disorder' (which I often throw at people who go HEY YOU NEED HELP) are a lot different from what even the industry itself can make them out to be.

But it's still true to say that the (rare) psychologist who tries to help you function is the good shrink and the others are corrupt sick selfish bastards. More or less.

Technically you can still be 'abnormal' I think. For example they might try and help you control yourself not to burst into song in the middle of your work office, but they SHOULDN'T stop you doing it anywhere else. (Except where it classes of breach of the peace of course)



.... I sound terrible. This is why I shouldn't post in the mornings. Did my point get across?

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

Yes, it did, we understood exactly what you were saying. Jay used to clerk for a psychologist who fit your description of one who wouldn't stop you singing altogether, so we know they exist. This man did not believe in pathologising every quirk or eccentricity that came down the pipe; if he had, he'd have had to put himself in a straitjacket. And he'd be the first to tell you so. One key to his success was that he never took himself too seriously; his degree was not a mantle of infallibility, the way it is for too many.

[sethrenn.livejournal.com]

I may be paranoid but maybe brainwashing is a key part of integration? (not that some don't need their brains washed from time to time :p) but the two processes seem to have at least some in common.

You're not totally off. From what we've heard, the process of integration involves literally re-conditioning your way of thinking-- training you to think and react as a single person, rather than as many. A lot of older theories of integration saw it as being simply 'putting the broken pieces back together'-- the idea was that multiplicity was an unnatural state, and that the natural inclination of the mind was towards being a single person (even William James disputed this). If you could squeeze everyone together, the thinking went, the 'original self' would fuse like a broken bone.

What happens in reality, though, is that even a person who begins as a fragment of another can develop. Personality doesn't break up into all these little neatly defined pieces-- even if someone starts out only being capable of certain tasks or feeling certain emotions, if they spend enough time at front and have to change and develop in response to the challenges placed on them by the earth world, they can develop new skills, acquire the ability to feel a range of emotions. If they become capable of handling the body's life in their own right, the idea that they still need to be merged with others in order to be 'whole' becomes much more dubious.

thanks for the reply. heh, longer plz. Im sure ill be getting flamed soon for my length's tho.

You're fine. Nobody flames anyone else on this group-- it's in the community info. If you do, you get your post deleted and get warned by the mod, and then kicked off. If you're afraid your post is too long, you might want to put it behind an lj-cut.

[sethrenn.livejournal.com]

If my system hired some quack to 'integrate' us, and he was successful. What EXACTLY will happen?

There does not seem to be a consensus on what exactly integration is. Doctors used to think that everyone could be melded together into a 100% thoroughgoing singlet who would have all the abilities and all the memories previously possessed by individual members, and never have a peep of 'otherness' again. The problem was that this was rarely as successful in practice as it was promoted as being in theory. Billy Milligan talked about what happened to his system after integration-- their new, singlet self, "The Teacher," had everyone's abilities, but after a few months they seemed to begin to wear off. They still had knowledge of things like painting or playing drums, but as an integrated single person, they couldn't do any of those as well as the people who used to have those skills, when they were plural, once could. They described how when they were in a situation where Ragen's abilities were needed, they spontaneously 'un-integrated' and became separate people once again, and, as far as I know, remain that way to this day.

Even in a lot of supposedly successful cases of integration (where the system wasn't just faking it to get out of the hospital, or whatever), it seems that to expect them to never do anything even remotely multiple-ish again is a stretch. The best some groups can do is to have a single frontrunner instead of many, although that person continues to hear from the others. A lot of multiples have expressed the opinion that integration is kind of a racket-- while I don't have any reason to doubt the few groups we've known who said they really had integrated, it seems that for most, going over to a life lived entirely as one person isn't really feasible. Some doctors have tried to come up with alternate definitions of integration in light of this, and some of them ended up confusing co-consciousness and memory sharing with integration, possibly because they were desperate to claim 'success.'

Remember, also, that integration isn't something that can be performed on you against your will. Nobody can forcibly mush you together. They can try to undermine your belief in your individuality, but that's not the same thing. From what we've read, everyone has to be in agreement and willing.

will I exist? Will my mates exist? will we really be this exciting 'blend' of all of us?

I can't really tell you that-- integration never worked for us, though we tried (on our own, not with a doctor). As far as the 'blend of all of us' goes, I believe what Billy Milligan had to say about it. We've known a couple of systems who were (or said they were) in walk-in situations, and rather than everyone combining into one person, the others just left, leaving one person in the body to run everything.

I 'mix' with my mates quite alot, and the 'whatever' that we become is no more them then me. Is that what integration does?

That isn't integration, although some doctors (again, probably those eager to believe they had really integrated their patients) thought it was. We've heard it called 'blurring' or 'being mushy,' and a lot of systems experience it; some like it, some don't. Again, I can't say from personal experience if that's what a real integration is like-- it makes some of us rather uncomfortable, though.

[beyli.livejournal.com]

Yah, our socila worker speaks of memory sharing and co-consciousness as integration too. She pretty much explicitly doesn't believe in the sort of compacting everyone down into one person sort of integration and told me right off it was a pipe dream.

[idianshire.livejournal.com]

I, personally, split in the way it's always described in the books, I had an event in my life I couldn't deal with, so I split off certain aspects of it and left them there. These emotional responses to the orginal situation became fragments that were "personalised" they never really became what anyone in the Shire would call persons. Anyway, long story short, I worked on taking those emotions back into my being, I wasn't really whole, and they weren't really individuals. As for existence, well the I that was there before is different from the I that is here now. I am not the kid that carried my name, but I know her, and I know the others that came back into the Olivia that now exists. I wouldn't call who I am now an exciting blend, but maybe this was on a smaller scale. What i am now is more well, human, like the rest of the Shire. There is more contradictions and conflictions in my spirit now, things aren't so black and white. Being "human" isn't a bunch of roses and fluffy bunnies, there is more challenges, more issues, but I am glad we did it.

I admit I am a little sensitive about this, but it does annoy me when murder/death is used in relation to integration. I am not a murderer and I didn't force death onto others. If like in my personal case there was a split that was caused by some abnormal event, then it is a re integration, a coming together after a being ripped apart. I would of course feel different if someone came into our community and killed off all the other members and left me here alone. But for me there is a difference between a personalised aspect of a whole person, and different people.

Olivia, one of the Shire

[changelyng14.livejournal.com]

I would like you ask you some very specific detailed questions in regards to your experience.
One's you may or may not feel comfortable answering in this board.

Describe in gorey detail some of whats laying about in my house and ask if you relate.

if you email changelyng@gmail.com ill ask you, if u don't ill a) understand and b) refrain.

thanks.

more...

[sethrenn.livejournal.com]

Is it normal for a split to fear death in face of integration in the same way its 'normal' for a singlet to fear death when their head is on a chopping block?

Like kangetsuhime said, if you're talking about someone who actually was split from a pre-existing self, they might be happy at the idea of being re-merged with their 'original'-- on the other hand, they may also feel that they've grown beyond being a fragment of another, that they've developed into their own person, and see integration as meaning the loss of the self they'd become. Of the systems we've known with members who did originate by splitting in the classical sense, many of those had grown and expanded in the subsequent years, and didn't think they could be put back together with others any more than twins could be put together into a single person.

Is a 'being' post-integrated a reliable source to explain what happened to them? Are there any post-integrates willing to explain what they've figured out about it in the sort of language I've gotten used to?

I think some of them are reliable sources. There's a book called "Beyond Integration" which discusses it. On the other hand, I've run into some multiples who claimed to be integrated who struck me as being simply in denial. I tend to trust the ones who don't push integration as being What We All Must Do and accept and respect the choices of those who don't want integration.

I know personally of three systems who either integrated or had everyone except for one person leave. I'm not sure if it would be violating their privacy to give webpages and/or LJs for them, so I won't give their names for now.

Re: more...

[changelyng14.livejournal.com]

thanks

Re: more...

[changelyng14.livejournal.com]

So far, integration seems like a good choice for a system who doesn't/can't/won't work out? unresolvable differences or such? maybe if ppl are making each other miserable enough that 'anything but this' is the state of mind?
are there many who preach integration for a system that likes theirselves?

[khlara.livejournal.com]

We were integrated for about 3 years. We didn't know it was happening and how our doctor did it may not be how they all do it, but basically what happened inside was that they put up a huge wall to basically block communication and then made it so the person who in our family is always co-conscious, be the singlet, continued to cut off communication. Basically, we experienced everyone's tics all the time. No one was killed, but nowadays it's hard for us to establish communication between new members and older members. We've only recently re-established/broken our mind again so we can be multiple, but still, there are weeks where it's silent and tumbleweeds roll by and it's hard. We just couldn't deal with the stress of being singlet. Everyone had their roles/part to play with the body, and 1 single mind just couldn't handle all that stuff.

Again though, this is just our personal experience. Mileage may vary, et. al.

[changelyng14.livejournal.com]

My experiences have been that I can walk about happily and some event will bug the heck out of me. I will make up my mind about it, and let it go, to find, ten minutes later that I'm fuming again. rinse, repeat, hours later, I still can't let it go. In my system we seem to only be able to cope with and resolve emotions if we are directly fronting. we've learned, in the last year, that in such a situation, step one; figure out whose pissy, 2) front lock them until they work it out on their own, 3) go from there re-enjoying peace.

we concluded that if we'd have been doing this ten/fifteen years ago. some of the maddening emotional instabilities that we've been plagued with all our lives would have been fifty times easier to workout.

perhaps a deeply repressed person who hates the way our life is. this 'seeps' thru whatever to those of us who dwell at the face and all we get is this maddening irrational urge to flee the happy stable life we're trying to build.

our initial reaction to learning that the big medication out there that apparently 'makes it harder to switch' seemed ludicrous to us. as if it isn't already hard enough for us to do it.

[khlara.livejournal.com]

...oddly enough, this is our same problem as well. The fuming, fume again 10 minutes later. Unfortunately, this can go on for a year. Something could happen 5 years ago and someone gets individually angered about it and there's nothing we can do.

[changelyng14.livejournal.com]

its alot of my fear of integration. i don't really think well get murdered or anything, just reglued to the back, and unable to resolve this sort of situation. and a number of other problems weve taken to solving by switching, such as 'front exhaustion'. rescuing spiraling depressives by fronting one of our chipperies for a bit, and other such.
pro-integration arguments are annoyingly void of anything to do with subjects like these.
ntm some of us just arent that compatible. i cant imagine being permanently or temporarily melded to our resident sand-hippy who has sworn to never lay hands on a keyboard. even though i like his whole thing very much and want some of his live-free energy on me.

[shandra.livejournal.com]

We have some minor experience with integration - a few people who were similar pretty much did integrate with each other, including me with Teresa.

Those kinds of integrations seemed to happen sort of naturally and gradually without much outside influence - in Resa's & my case it was kind of like for a long long time we were co-conscious and then some of our distinctions wore down (she was more lesbian & I was more heterosexual & now I/we are more bi), and then I had fuller access to her memories and she to mine and then we agreed on most things and then for a while it was like having an extra arm and I/we could choose whether to speak as "Teresa" or "Shandra" and then gradually it became about the same.

Because in a way Teresa's/my public face remains mostly "Shandra" in nature (I was always the extrovert of the two of us) some people might experience that as a loss of Teresa. To me it doesn't really seem that way; it's more like a few corners were knocked off, in the way that people sometimes change after getting married or having kids; the focus changes and so you don't see them dancing on tables as much.

Not sure if that makes any sense. Sometimes I feel less integrated, so I'm not sure it's a permanent state.

In one 4-day period last year our system was what I would describe as "unified" - we were for once absolutely all present and all thinking/behaving/reacting to the exact same situation. That was a head trip. We were still individually present but it was probably what therapists jerk off too in some ways - we had everyone's personality available at the same time. We were also exhausted, sick, and under tremendous emotional stress (the delivery, birth, and death of our daughter). I think that was very powerful and it certainly has made us somewhat kinder to each other but I don't recommend it.

Both of these things again were very natural /for us/.

Personally I think if any system attempts to integrate for an outside person (therapist) or force people who don't want to integrate, then it does become like a pitched battle and there are deaths. Because whenever you use force that is a risk. If anyone were at any time trying to force me to integrate (esp,. in the past, with Resa, since we were pretty much rivals in some ways)

I would so smack them around. And yes, some fear might be present, although I really don't think anyone could /force/ me to integrate. Historically people in the system can force me to be not-present or 'dead' (as opposed to permanently dead) but they can't get inside my head. Err, ha, but really - they can't, just "our" head , if that makes any sense?

But what we've actually experienced is not like that. Metaphorically I suppose it's the difference between forcing someone into some kind of soul-sucking arranged marriage, or someone chosing happily to join up to someone else.

Our therapist isn't a big fan of integration unless her clients (i.e. the people in the system) want to and I am quite confident in saying that while we probably have unified more as we've shared experiences with each other about the past /and/, most importantly, shared our life in the present for years now, we won't ever be getting down to "one person in one body." We're just not really like that. :-)

I hope that helps with your question. If you want to ask more specific ones I can try to answer them.

Shandra

[forever-alone.livejournal.com]

I was integrated with our former frontrunner a few years ago. I was not aware of this for some time, and when I found out what had really happened it had a negative effect on me. I've never really talked about it in-depth with anyone though... if you have some direct questions you'd like to ask me about my experience, you can e-mail me (my address is in my user info).

[shatterstorm.livejournal.com]

We've had several times where a group of us will 'merge' into one self and front for periods of time. It is a lot more comfortable than that co-consciousness stuff. We don't argue much in that state, thoughts flow smoothly, and it is a lot easier to make everyone content.

Sometimes some of us will decide to merge permanantly. This has happened a couple times when some of us holding trauma were able to share with the rest of us and we worked thru what they were holding. They didn't exactly dissolve, but they were... done? The walls went down and they weren't separate anymore. There's other selves that have worked thru trauma that are quite happy to hang with us too - I've no idea what causes one or the other.

Integration is held to be a holy grail for a lot of Ts. Personally we think that's ignoring a far better goal - we are much more interested in living a functional and satisfying life. For some people that might include becoming a singleton. *shrug*

I would be very leery of someone who says you have to wall off or isolate or kill off your inside people - the needs of the ones repressed will still color reactions and moods. Traumas can't be healed that way, and whatever needs are held by those parts of you aren't getting met. Repression for us can cause incidents where the frontrunner loses time. To us that's dysfunctional.