I'm holding all my blood inside this skin

[ex-khailitha846.livejournal.com]

Greetings to all!

I have a question.

Seems that almost every multiple I know has at one time or another dealt with a self-destructive system member that cuts, or engages in activities that are similarly dangerous to the body. The multiples I know have all been involved in trauma's of some sort (the most interesting one had for a father one of Fidel Castro's ex-bodyguards - serious freakiness there, but I digress).

Since interacting with this community, I have been introduced to the phenomenon of natural multiples, which makes sense to me and, I think, addresses some of the unanswered questions about why many horribly abused kids don't develop DID but use other coping mechanisms. I don't really want this to turn into a big discussion about the natural vs. trauma thing, but I am curious...

How many systems here deal or have dealt with self-destructive members and do you think is this an experience more closely linked with trauma-involved multiples or is it a trait shared equally across the full spectrum of all multiples? +edit: Or, do you think self-harm and multiplicity have no intrinsic connection, given the number of singlets who also engage in self-harming activities.

All comments and experiences would be greatly appreciated.

Sending good vibes to all!

Jess

Comments

[bflathorn.livejournal.com]

Research being as sad as it is has come up with this:
Whether MPD or DID, it is usually the case to have at least one alter that is angry with the core. Alters have suffered through everything. Thier lack of trust and security with the core is usually very strong and has to be worked on.. Alters can act in dangerous behaviors(sexually,drugs, alcohol) and can also revert to SIB(Self Injur. Behav.). Most multiples stem from some for of trauma. It is rare to have multiples w/o trauma.
S.

[sethrenn.livejournal.com]

Most multiples stem from some for of trauma. It is rare to have multiples w/o trauma.

You may want to read this if you think that's always the case: Layman's Guide (http://www.kitsune.cx/blackbirds/layman/)

Trauma-based systems (or systems which have experienced trauma) have received the most attention in psychiatric literature because smoothly-functioning systems generally had no need to see therapists-- it was a classic skewed sampling. It was like how in the 1950s therapists assumed homosexuality was always an illness because all the homosexuals who came to them seeking help were experiencing some form of emotional distress, so they assumed that distress was intrinsically connected to the experience of being gay.

[ex-khailitha846.livejournal.com]

I've seen you commenting to several posts in several of the multiple communities recently and I'm really curious: Who are you and why are you here? It could be that you have long been interacting in these spaces, and I just missed you, being fairly new here and all. I haven't seen you speak from a personal perspective, nor have you indicated the nature of your interest in the experience of being multiple, but it seems to me you are all too willing to belt forth data with the attitude that you are the sole receptacle of truth regarding the experience... so... I'd really like to know what your agenda is.

[pengke.livejournal.com]

You might have a point here. The only reason we could see that multiples would be more likely to self injure than singles would be because it's a way for the oppressed people in the system to act out. The people you refer to as alters do go through a lot. They're denied their right to their life. They're told they only exist to protect the host. They forcibly prevented from using their body. They're told they have to obey the host. It's no wonder that when the stereotypical host/alter mode of operation is used so many of the alters wind up angry. And destructive behavior and harming the body can be one of the few ways they have of expressing their helplessness and anger at the situation.

On the other hand; multiples, especially ones with cooperative operation of their system, have assets that would make them less likely to harm themselves than singles. You have people who can prevent the person who would harm them from taking control of the body. You have the very fact that the person can not hurt themselves without hurting everyone else. You have a support system there for helping the person.

[sethrenn.livejournal.com]

Disclaimer: We can't speak from a standpoint of experience, because we've never had any self-mutilating system members. That said, we've also read a lot of the older literature on trauma-based systems (or at least systems assumed to be trauma-based, but I'll take them at face value that they were), and self-mutilation considered to be prevalent among multiples, even a defining characteristic, seems to be a relatively recent phenomenon. There's nothing about it in Sybil or in any of the case histories predating hers.

If you really want my opinion, I think self-mutilating, especially cutting, is actually often a meme-- an idiom of distress among young women in particular. We have actually known people who never self-mutilated at all until they were in psychiatric wards with other people who did, found online support communities where other people talked about doing it, or just met other people who did it, and then became addicted to it as a release from pain, and then begged for support outside those communities asking someone to help them to stop it.

I don't think it has to do with multiplicity per se; rather I think this pattern of behaviour is expressed most often in people in general who have some kind of trauma backgrounds, whether they are multiple or not. Because so many of the multiples posting online do have trauma backgrounds (whether or not the trauma was the origin of the system), or system members with some kind of emotional issues, they're much more likely to have found the SI meme to be an outlet for their emotional distress. This isn't to say there aren't people who start doing SI of their own accord before knowing that others do, and are downright relieved to find out they're not the only ones who do it-- but there are also a lot of people we know who never started until they heard of others who did.

That said, this isn't a slam against you, but I get a little prickly whenever it's implied that it's 'normal' for multiple systems to have members who do SI. Remembering the person I knew who begged for someone to help her stop cutting, I kind of cringe at the idea that such a person might come in a multiple community looking for help and simply be told that it was normal for multiples.

[ex-khailitha846.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... I think you misunderstood the source of my question. I actually was having a hard time figuring out just where exactly the self-harm (or SI, although not all cutting is SI) pattern fits with the multiple pattern and I'm trying to get a broader perspective. I am looking for replies, like yours, from the systems in this community rather than judgements and credos from psych models because I've found the population here to be a much more diverse and healthy representation of the experience than is found in clinical models. I don't mind you getting "prickly" -

"Remembering the person I knew who begged for someone to help her stop cutting, I kind of cringe at the idea that such a person might come in a multiple community looking for help and simply be told that it was normal for multiples."

I cringe at this scenario also - thus the question.

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

Based on what I remember from the 80s and 90s, I have to agree with this. Cutting and other self-mutilation connected with multiplicity was practically unheard of until the Bennet Braun and Colin Ross era. Then you couldn't stop'em.

It was part of the badge of membership in communities like alt.sexual.abuse.recovery, which had a heavy multiple membership, and alt.support.dissociation, which was a spinoff of a.s.a.r. devoted entirely to multiplicity. Or should I say MPD and DID. I'm not saying that these women didn't have anything really wrong, I'm saying that they did, and the self-harming was their way of signalling that something was wrong -- I often felt it meant they were frustrated, that despite spending many hours a week in therapy, their "T's" weren't getting it or listening to them.

I think it is sometimes a way of letting off steam when nobody is hearing you -- I've seen perfectly normal toddlers bite themselves out of rage that they couldn't express themselves in words in a way their parents understood.

I also know that cutting has become fashionable and stylish among Goths or those who consider themselves same. For some it is related to blood games which are a form of vampire play. And messing around with mediaeval torture devices and the like. Were they all traumatised as children? Perhaps.

The difficulty with judging any of this by whether or not people were traumatised as children is that most people have experienced some form of trauma in childhood. Life is still cruel and brutal, even with parents who try to be kind and give their kids a good life. Andy has a rant (http://www.astraeasweb.net/plural/ourtruth.html) on our web pages about sustaining trauma in daily life. If trauma caused people to split, everybody would be multiple.

[azraile.livejournal.com]

if your wondering how this could be delt with....

try this....


get a dull blade and 'cut' yourself with it.... one that mearly is sharp enugh to leave scratch marks at the most... lol... and just draw it over you a lot...... enugh you can feel it.....

the kinda rituatilstic mocking of self cutting can relax those urges quite a bit.

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

Here's another. Get a BIG, RED magic marker. Use exactly as you would a knife for cutting. This works; we've got several friends who cured themselves of cutting using this method.

If you feel like breaking glass when you're uptight, freeze water in a tray and break it. It feels very realistic.

Agreed

[darkheart1.livejournal.com]

I agree with this method, I have DID MPD which ever you want to classify it as and I have two major alters that cut, one really bad and the other not to often only when they have problems in this life and the alter that cuts bad is down to just scatching the surface and it satisfies him, or if its not just scratching the surface its laying a blade that has a girated edge to it and just pressing it down into the skin until they felt the pinch in the skin and that satisfies him too. I agree with your method here.

Demitri

[tir-nan-og.livejournal.com]

Hello! I must admit I feel a bit silly posting because you, Khailitha, are someone who we consider to be a personal friend of ours. You are certainly not unfamiliar with our ongoing struggle with this issue. Nonetheless..
I feel it is important to clarify one thing. Forgive me if I am misunderstanding..we are having a brutal night..but I noticed someone say self-injury was a meme for young women. We were hospitalized at age sixteen for a very dramatic self injuring episode. The member of our system who did it, Blue Morpho, had no idea that anyone else in the world had ever done such a thing, nor had she ever heard of it before. The idea occured to her, you might say, out of the blue. What Blue Morpho did, in such an automatic, zombieish way, was later taken up by Roman as a learned behavior to bring emotional release, but most of all as a sort of trump card, to frighten a world that frightened and sickened her. She knew most people found it to be a deeply disturbing, even viscerally repellant, behavior. That newfound ability to repell made her feel safe.
Roman has..barely..sworn off such behaviors. She has been severely tested in this regard, and has learned that the price one pays is that there are times when one must simply writhe like a worm and feel horrible feelings. There are some odd rules in place to prevent her from returning to old ways. One of the oddest is that if she ever feels she must act, she calls the person she is closest to, in this case her fiance, and talks about why she feels she must act, first. So far, it has worked.
The important thing is to not place too much emormity on the behaviors, even as you set in place rules to control them. If you have a trauma background, be you multiple or singlet, it is quite likely that the feelings that prompt self injury are.. are almost awesome in their magnitude. At times controlling the behaviors may seem to be a hollow triumph, but that is not to be taken as a signal to revert to the behaviors again. It is only a sign that it is time to face the slavering beast you are running from; the feelings and memories which you feel cannot be endured.
be well, my friend.
Tir Nan Og

[ex-khailitha846.livejournal.com]

'Ello Luv,

I'm so sorry to hear you are having a brutal night. Sending lots of hugs and support. Sometimes I really wish there was more I could do than that.

"...there are times when one must simply writhe like a worm and feel horrible feelings."

How well We know this. Goddess hon, if I ever come up with a better way, you'll be the first to know. Hmmm... although, we negotiated with Dandelion and Char using cigarettes as bait. Instead of cutting, they could smoke. Now several of Us smoke to avoid the horrible feelings. I'm trying to work up the courage to face whatever cigarettes manage to obscure, but it's not solely up to me, and We keep wimping out.

&Oh, shoosh, We are not wimping out. You have no idea what you're asking.&

See?

I agree with everything you said here, and you, as usual, said it very well. This is mostly a fishing expedition. This question has been bugging several of Us for a while, from a purely intellectual viewpoint, and tonight seemed like a good night to ask it. Thanks for answering, what, with the flaming going on and all, it helped to see you here.

I think We're for bed now.

Sending light and comfort.

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

Point taken re Blue Morpho, but the fact remains that for thousands of girls (and boys), self-harm, particularly cutting, is an imitative, meme-like behaviour. They see friends doing it to relieve stress or express frustration, so they do it. That doesn't mean it's always that way, and I don't think that's how Shiu meant it.

"The important thing is to not place too much emormity on the behaviors, even as you set in place rules to control them." I couldn't agree more: emphasising self-injury as a horrific, monstrously evil deed just makes it worse. There is something about this in I Never Promised You A Rose Garden... the behaviour must be taken seriously, but not too seriously.

Must be said

[bflathorn.livejournal.com]

I get completely irritated by people only mentioning female DID/MPD.....There are those of us who are male.....Even in these communities we feel isolated.....

Shawn

Re: Must be said

[tir-nan-og.livejournal.com]

I do not have MPD/DID. I am a natural multiple. I wasnt sure this was directed at me, but to be honest, I am not sure just how different it would be, to be multiple and a biological male. Many systems contain both males and females, regardless of the body's gender.
If you would like to give the male perspective on multiplicity, please jump in and say whatever you like about your own situation. There is no need to feel isolated on the basis of your biological gender.

[duathir.livejournal.com]

I am not sure how "activities dangerous to the body" are to be defined. In former years my brother frequently put this body in significant danger, not out of desire to harm himself, but because he seemed to either not recognize danger, or not realize the physical limitations of this body. He still often seems not to, but has grown more willing to rely on my judgement or our sister's in such matters, thus he is no longer so reckless.

I also do not know how "trauma" is to be defined. It seems to me that life is intrinsically harsh, and that those for whom it is not are the exceptions rather than the rule. Perhaps much of the current trend in this country toward deliberate self-harm stems from an unreasonable expectation that it should not be harsh. People in other places whose lives are often a great deal harsher do not generally seek to harm themselves; more often their focus is on survival by any means possible.

I sought physical death once, many years ago, that seeming the only reasonable and honorable solution to the dilemma of my existence at the time. It had nothing to do with anger toward my Kin; my anger was toward myself for having failed of my purpose, and I was grieved and confused. Afterward, I was ashamed to have caused harm to my Kin, and resolved not to do so again.

We have always been together, we three; we did not become as we are through abuse. I do not think any of us are "alters", or any one of us is "the core" - what we are is family, and would not choose to be parted from one another under any circumstances. Three bodies instead of one would be more convenient, of course, but since we cannot have that, we are content as we are.

[ex-khailitha846.livejournal.com]

I posted Our definition of "trauma" above. You are right, life is harsh. Culture and history is full of commonplace occurences that society, now, views as harsh or brutal.

"Perhaps much of the current trend in this country toward deliberate self-harm stems from an unreasonable expectation that it should not be harsh."

Processing this... and, in part I think you are right. But, I think another huge factor is that in many of these harsher societies, the experience of the brutality is not denied. In many cultures, very painful and, to us, degrading practices are accepted as part of life and seem to cause very few ill effects in large segments of the population. I think this is because people are basically social (even elves are social... not as strictly hierarchal, and possibly different in other regards, but we do possess an instinct for grouping) and get many of their clues about reality and identity from observing those around them. So, when a life-threatening situation occurs, it is included in and creates no troubling contradiction with the persons social reality, and therefore creates no dilemmas, no paradox, and can be accepted as part of reality.

In Western society as it is currently conceptualized, it seems that so much brutality is denied, swept under the rug, kept secret, that those experiencing molestation, beatings, rapes, neglect, are essentially told to behave as if it wasn't happening, or as if it was their fault. This response to a life-threat offers no resolution for the emotional and physical energy that gets stuck in the body and soul. This response creates a severe split between the "inside" reality and the "outside" reality, and becomes a source of pain and confusion.

Now that I think about it, I wonder if this split between the situation you experienced in the time before and the kind of society and reality in which you find yourself now might not be a huge contributing factor in your own experience of distress and confusion. The dilemma of your existence might be alleviated a great deal if you were in a society which honored and validated your existence, and also honored and valued the paradigm of the culture which you have lost.

Hmmmm...

"Three bodies instead of one would be more convenient..."

How often We've longed for a cloning device that would allow Us to produce enough bodies for those who want their independence, and just let them go and be free.

%I guess straight cloning wouldn't work in your case, as you need bodies with different genders than the one you are in now. If you ever figure it out, let Us know. For more reasons than one *wink, wink*.%

=Be well friend, and pay them no heed if they disturb you. Young girls need to flirt and your sense of honor, regardless of your corporeal situation, means they are safe with you, so permission has been granted. If you are offended, please request them to stop.=

Sending light, dear Duathir!

[jew87.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I find cuts on me. I think its the Shadow. I dont know.

[shadowechoes.livejournal.com]

I think the people in here who cut do it for the same reason singletons cut. It's about depression, not about being multiple. We're trauma-origin too, and yes, Our trauma does make Us depressed, as do a number of things, but it's the depression that makes Us self destructive, not being multiple. The whole, secondary disorders thing. I think even across the spectrum of multiples, you'll find natural multiples who cut. And you'll find singletons who cut because of depression too. A lot of Us used to cut, but now We're not allowed anymore and many don't even have the urge to anymore because they're not as depressed as they used to be or as depressed as some of the rest of Us are who do still want to cut.
~BrokenWings

[saturniakitty.livejournal.com]

We're a natural mutiple, and two members of the system (myself and Shi) used to SI, but we don't anymore... I don't think there's any connection, at least not with us.

Hi Jess, Our Answers

[gia1977.livejournal.com]

Hi Jess, good questions to have asked. I had wondered these things myself. Strangely enough, my inner crew Jesse is the one who is into the S.I. stuff, I guess. I just know we occasionally cut and scratch a lot. I find ourselves biting lately. I know we tried the ice methods, markers, and have taken up physical exercise as means of coping. Journaling does help too, but that gets hard when I am co-con or median with my inner crew people. I know for our crew it has been a basis of being trauma based yes, as we didn't know any other alternatives, yet it's also something that is mutually shared with all of us, as we know it's gonna happen regardless of how much we beg for it not too. We can discuss options and hope for the best but at times, it's hard to control it. I'm not sure on if self harm and multiplicity has no intrinsic connection, so I will leave that question up to others who best know. Again, I don't speak for anyone except what we, in my crew, agree on. So, if what we said or do, doesn't agree with anyone, sorry, but we're speaking for ourselves only. Hope no one minds. We did like the questions though.

Re: Hi Jess, Our Answers

[ex-khailitha846.livejournal.com]

Thanks. I was hoping that each system would speak for themselves so there is no need to apologize.

Take care!

[whisperedones.livejournal.com]

Hiyas. We might've been a natural multiple (We remember more than one of Us before the abuse started), but We were abused as kids, so we cannot claim one or the other.

Anyway. We have four self-destructive Members in Our system, all four are cutters, one has an eating disorder (is that considered Self-Destructive? I think so) and one who bruises herself.

Before We knew We were a multiple, Ruby (the host) was cutting, so from my standpoint, I don't think the two are connected, I just think it's a coping mechanism that happens to be one that coincidentally, some members of multiple systems use.

-Cor

[jinxtigr.livejournal.com]

I attempted suicide rather than self-harm. (ha! what a sentence THAT is). I think to some extent it is because I absolutely had no hope of anyone understanding. Now that I know about self-harm, I can see situations where I would be drawn to it. Helplessness is a definite trigger, and not having my viewpoint acknowledged. Hell, there are times when tir_nan_og is upset beyond consoling and full of self-loathing and that's a kind of trigger too because it's like taking the person(s) I love away from me. I daresay my driven implacable work behaviors can be quite the same thing the other way- I can see the signs of it.
The connection I see is invalidation. I'm singlet but autistic and grew up being trained to act like an NT person, with very heavy expectations- that to my folks seemed perfectly natural and reasonable. It wasn't so much the failing of the expectations, it was their complete inability to instinctively understand my viewpoint. I felt non-real, or like an alien, mostly like a complete failure. Failure even at FEELING or being or existing. Something so horribly wrong- and I had to behave in learned ways and act as normal as possible.;
If I'd got into self-harming I'd have got HEAVY into it. The need was there, it just went unmet.
I had no capacity to 'be anybody else' who might pass muster. I'm not sure if I'm better or worse off for that, because I'm still living with the pressures of failing to comply. I may always have that, I don't know.

[tigrin.livejournal.com]

First... I'm not directing this at you, but when people say "self-harm" they almost always assume cutting. I can see how that would make an automatic connection, as one of the most commonly known forms of self-injury is cutting. But there are a lot of other means of harming yourself that don't involve blood necessarily. Starving or overeating... picking, scratching... hair pulling (trichotillomania). I have symptoms of the last two... I pull out my eyebrows and eyelashes (I don't have any at the moment, really, which is kind of annoying as stuff gets in your eyes), and I pick off acne on my face, which actually causes me to bleed and leaves scars. All this is done "subconciously", i.e. it's impulsive, I don't have complete control over it and I usually feel better once I've messed myself up. Most of the time I don't realize I'm doing it for a while. I don't start hacking at my face thinking "I want to hurt myself"... and I don't know how long I've been doing it, so I can't say when it started... years ago, perhaps from self-concious desires to fix my acne or my thick eyebrows to be more appealing to other people. It's not always a big trauma thing though I think it's definitely more often than not related to something psychologically.

The definition of "trauma" is kinda technical, at least I feel so... because one person's definition of what is traumatic to them is entirely different from someone else's perception. For someone, their traumatic breaking point might only come at a one-time, life-threatening event. But I don't think it has to be life-threatening to be traumatic, or only happen once. I think it could be something drawn out... anything that pushes someone's emotional capacity, over and over, especially if it's on a daily basis. I was teased brutally every day for a year in 7th grade. And while it was verbal abuse, it still was as hurtful as being consistently whipped, and this was every single day at school... and while physical pain goes away, emotional pain like that doesn't. It certainly wasn't life-threatening (as far as I know, no one ever threatened me physically) but I would still consider that somewhat traumatic.

but anyway. I think self-injury is not dependent either on trauma or multiplicity. There are many different reasons people self-injure.

[kao-no-san.livejournal.com]

Hmm.. Blood is the self-destructive one in the system, a bit less so now that she merged with Silvaren, but i have a number of scars on my left arm from her cutting. Most of the time Silvaren can keep her from hurting us, but it doesn't always work. We belive it was her that took the brunt of the trauma that we experenced when we were younger. She also seems to be the one that hold our two locked memories, since she gets very violent and protective when someone suggest undergoing hypnosis to remember them or to try and unlock them.