[identity profile] death-mountain.livejournal.com
So, the other day I came up some questions off the top of my head.
-When you wake up in the morning, how does that work? Do you all wake at once, or one by one?
-Are any of your system members bilingual, or speak a language other than English and no English at all?
-How often do new members show up, or make themselves known?
-When one member is sick, or the body is sick, does everyone else get sick too?
If even a few people would care to satisfy my curiosity, I'd appreciate it. ^_^
[identity profile] sethrenn.livejournal.com
Given the vast number of posts in the lilspeak debate over the past day, I decided I might as well review community policy as it pertains to debates like this one. While our in-system children do have a definite take on it, I'm trying not to show partiality, unless anyone thinks their input would be particularly important.

However, I've seen people threatening to quit or leave the community, saying they feel they or their children aren't safe any more, etc. As regards community policy, and safety, there are a few things I should clear up.

1. The original 'just say no to lilspeak' post and its followups did not violate any community standards, though the 'morons on crack' remark, which was quoted from a post in another community with different rules, was admittedly pushing the envelope. Therefore, controversial or no, it was allowed to stay.

This community is not a safe place, in the traditional sense. What it is is an open place. Like the old DP list, it's a place where one can freely discuss any aspect of multiplicity, within reason and without censorship, and everyone is responsible for their own safety and well-being. "Within reason," in this case, means that the mods, some of whom remember the endless flamewars that DP often turned into, instituted rules against direct attacking and flaming of other posters. You can criticise an idea without criticising the person who came up with it.

If your in-system kids, children, littles, whatever, will get upset if someone disagrees with them or doesn't want them to write in lilspeak, then no, this is not a 'safe place' for them if you're defining it that way. The mods will crack down on people if they flame or openly attack, but not if they disagree. Children are as welcome to post as anyone else, but they don't get special treatment.

2. If you feel that you have been personally flamed/attacked/insulted, let the mods know (email is preferred) and we will review the post in question to see if it violates community standards. We don't always read every comment, and sometimes things get out of hand when we're not looking.
[identity profile] wolfcubbie.livejournal.com
Has anyone on this community offered help to the littles, or ASKED them questions, concerning the way they talk? I mean, I've been reading the posts here, and decided to make a journal so I could comment on them.

It really bothers me that people are getting so frustrated, uncomfortable, and generally pissed off at the littles' posts. First, let me say, why can't the littles post too? they have something to say like everyone else. And I noticed, they have sense enough(just like I did when I was little)to know when to post in their personal journal, and when to post in the communities, just need some help getting their thoughts across...

WHY WON'T ANYONE OFFER THEM THE HELP THAT YOU PEOPLE SEEM TO THINK THEY NEED?

yeah, I know sometimes lilspeak is fake, I know that. But, sometimes it's not. and no one else seems to know the difference.

I do. I'm gonna make a new community. I'm gonna ask Rick to help(because he's out more than me) like he helped me spell and LEARN TO SPELL when I was a little kid. I'm gonna make a community for littles that are frustrated at bigs not taking them seriously. For littles that want to be heard, but can't seem to get their thoughts across right. For littles who want help spelling better, and talking better on the internet. I'll let you know the name when I do it.

cubbie
Pack Collective
[identity profile] shandra.livejournal.com
This is probably beating a dead horse a little but I don't really like to see people feel their kids are being negated by a discussion about Lilspeak.

So I just wanted to distinguish a bit between bad spelling/grammar and Lilspeak, apart from the rant. And say why we decided to discourage our kids from learning or using it.

Children acquire language in a fairly specific pattern. This article from the National Institute on Deafness and Other Communication Disorders shows some of them. People who have worked in special ed (I did, although not at a very high level) know that quite often it's possible to identify a physical or neurological learning difficulty simply by looking at kids' written mistakes. Mistakes that transpose (flip) letters are one kind, mistakes that get the wrong sounds are another kind, etc. Not all spelling mistakes have a reason - that's why you get *really weird* spellings sometimes, that aren't phonetic - but that in itself demonstrates a clear stage that the child is at.

Why Lilspeak is controversial is that often the way it is written on the 'net doesn't follow the rules of language acquisition. It's not just a case of delayed development - someone in a multiple system writing like they're 5 when they're 7 - it's that the errors common in Lilspeak are not commonly made child grammatical errors. Also, as people have noted, quite often the errors are superficial - phonetic spelling, for example - while the underlying verb/tense/clause construction is fine (and quite advanced).

Now the reasons for this could be a zillion - overlapping adult consciousnesses, absorbing social/grammar/spelling rules on the net (kids are good at this - in fact that's how they absorb language), whatever. In a way Lilspeak is more like a pidgin language - a strange hybrid between how children "sound" inside and the adults hearing it. Functionally kids who use it have learned a new language.

But why it can be controversial is that anyone that is aware of how kids acquire language will not perceive Lilspeak as a child language. It may make them more suspicious and less accepting of system kids. It may in rare cases open a system child who /is/ trying to communicate to ridicule or skepticism that isn't necessary. And as a group concern (which I don't worry about too much, but it is there) it can make the typing look "faked" and "not really a kid" to anyone who's trying to prove that for whatever reason.

You could say to your average person Lilspeak probably looks the same as actual poor spelling, but I myself think anyone sensitive to language patterns will pick up on the bad-spelling-but-complex-sentences dissonance, on some level. And we have generally found that if people feel something is 'off' they get closed-minded pretty fast.

As long as one's system kids only talk to other multiple systems' kids, it won't be an issue if that's the dialect they choose to acquire and learn - so no harm, no foul in that sense. But if one's looking at a broader audience for system kids to communicate with, it may cause problems.

I don't think being aware of this is elite or snobby. I don't even think it means "down with Lilspeak!" Neither does it mean "down with bad spelling!"

I'm just saying, sometimes the Lilspeak hides the realness of the child rather than communicating that reality. And hopefully that information can be useful to people in making their own decisions about it.
[identity profile] arimle.livejournal.com
I was reading some of the posts on the last thread and it made me think about Slávka, who I mentioned in my last post. She was the first person I became aware of, because I was already somewhat aware of somebody else inside of me who spoke Czech.

There isn't anything toastery (this is another term I like very much) about this, it isn't as if suddenly I, who had no Czech connections whatsoever, rose up one morning and started gibbering in Czech. I understand just as much Czech as Sláva. I can translate probably better than she can, in fact. But only she can generate it. If she's not around, I have a very hard time speaking it at all -- even though I know the words and I know how to pronounce them.

She and I were born at the same time, I a little before her, (I've begun to think of us as sisters) in the same place, the library. I was born from the history books we read, and she was born from our Czech textbook. (Actually, I think that an amalgam of Sláva and me was around for a little bit when we were very young, but was gone by the time we started grade school -- it's a sort of in-system reincarnation, or something, I guess.) If there hadn't been a Slávka-seed somewhere inside, then we'd only have learnt Czech because we're language nerds, and we'd have gotten bored with it long ago; but the egg was fertilized and she was born.

So anyway, the whole point of this post is not just sort out my thoughts about mine and Slávka's genesis, but mostly to ask you how language affects your system.

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