I'm holding all my blood inside this skin

[ex-khailitha846.livejournal.com]

Greetings to all!

I have a question.

Seems that almost every multiple I know has at one time or another dealt with a self-destructive system member that cuts, or engages in activities that are similarly dangerous to the body. The multiples I know have all been involved in trauma's of some sort (the most interesting one had for a father one of Fidel Castro's ex-bodyguards - serious freakiness there, but I digress).

Since interacting with this community, I have been introduced to the phenomenon of natural multiples, which makes sense to me and, I think, addresses some of the unanswered questions about why many horribly abused kids don't develop DID but use other coping mechanisms. I don't really want this to turn into a big discussion about the natural vs. trauma thing, but I am curious...

How many systems here deal or have dealt with self-destructive members and do you think is this an experience more closely linked with trauma-involved multiples or is it a trait shared equally across the full spectrum of all multiples? +edit: Or, do you think self-harm and multiplicity have no intrinsic connection, given the number of singlets who also engage in self-harming activities.

All comments and experiences would be greatly appreciated.

Sending good vibes to all!

Jess

Comments

[morgil-lomion.livejournal.com]

Educated people are just as easy to manipulate as anyone else(in some cases moreso) but I don't believe anyone here is trying to do so to you. I'm not sure why you think anyone is.

Re: Agreed

[azraile.livejournal.com]

I don't think a sharp blade shoudl be used at all.. to tempting to just turn and cut

Think it's far better to just use a dull one EXACTLY like you would the sharp one... but sence it's dull it can't cut deep enugh to draw blood.. just scratch...

very helpfull for me....

but a sharp one like this might do it if the dull one don't help

[ex-khailitha846.livejournal.com]

Oh, if you are referring to the "What I stated I stated...", I left out the comma. It should read, "What I stated, I stated...." and then it will be grammatically correct, repetition and all.

Adieu.

[morgil-lomion.livejournal.com]

When you say "us" do you mean you and the Others with you or do you mean other people on this community?

And I must say that I think her attitude rather resonable considering the tone which was (knowingly or unknowingly) inserted into your first post. To me it implied arrogance which rubs many people the wrong way. If you want to know specifically how it seemed arrogant ask and I will say.

[tir-nan-og.livejournal.com]

Oh no, dear..it's NEVER a question of wimping out if you are not ready to look in the basement of your mind. Certainly I would never want to sound strident about such a thing, or as if it would be simple or easy. I spent three hours on the phone with Jinx..rather typical..but there is still absolutely no question of facing the grand finale to the morbid musical that exists in our mind. I am not really sure it is consciously up to us at all!
If cigarettes help, that is not a bad thing. Sometimes I think my more purist approach to these bad nights is a little masochistic. Taking it easy on yourself can be so very difficult.
Sleep well...

[kiya]

I think it is sometimes a way of letting off steam when nobody is hearing you -- I've seen perfectly normal toddlers bite themselves out of rage that they couldn't express themselves in words in a way their parents understood.

My general experience of "cutting" or something similar is somewhat rooted in this, and also rooted in situations in which I was under so much stress that I was incapable of feeling -- and pain was therefore a means to a) feel something and b) feel something that was directly under my control.

[duathir.livejournal.com]

I am not sure how "activities dangerous to the body" are to be defined. In former years my brother frequently put this body in significant danger, not out of desire to harm himself, but because he seemed to either not recognize danger, or not realize the physical limitations of this body. He still often seems not to, but has grown more willing to rely on my judgement or our sister's in such matters, thus he is no longer so reckless.

I also do not know how "trauma" is to be defined. It seems to me that life is intrinsically harsh, and that those for whom it is not are the exceptions rather than the rule. Perhaps much of the current trend in this country toward deliberate self-harm stems from an unreasonable expectation that it should not be harsh. People in other places whose lives are often a great deal harsher do not generally seek to harm themselves; more often their focus is on survival by any means possible.

I sought physical death once, many years ago, that seeming the only reasonable and honorable solution to the dilemma of my existence at the time. It had nothing to do with anger toward my Kin; my anger was toward myself for having failed of my purpose, and I was grieved and confused. Afterward, I was ashamed to have caused harm to my Kin, and resolved not to do so again.

We have always been together, we three; we did not become as we are through abuse. I do not think any of us are "alters", or any one of us is "the core" - what we are is family, and would not choose to be parted from one another under any circumstances. Three bodies instead of one would be more convenient, of course, but since we cannot have that, we are content as we are.

[jew87.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I find cuts on me. I think its the Shadow. I dont know.

[shadowechoes.livejournal.com]

That's what I try to do now, the marker thing. I actually discovered it by accident when some of the kids were having marker fight wars and scribbled all over eachother.
~Broken Wings

[shadowechoes.livejournal.com]

I think the people in here who cut do it for the same reason singletons cut. It's about depression, not about being multiple. We're trauma-origin too, and yes, Our trauma does make Us depressed, as do a number of things, but it's the depression that makes Us self destructive, not being multiple. The whole, secondary disorders thing. I think even across the spectrum of multiples, you'll find natural multiples who cut. And you'll find singletons who cut because of depression too. A lot of Us used to cut, but now We're not allowed anymore and many don't even have the urge to anymore because they're not as depressed as they used to be or as depressed as some of the rest of Us are who do still want to cut.
~BrokenWings

[saturniakitty.livejournal.com]

We're a natural mutiple, and two members of the system (myself and Shi) used to SI, but we don't anymore... I don't think there's any connection, at least not with us.

Re: Must be said

[poespretty.livejournal.com]

hi, i haven't posted here in a while so you guys may not remember me, but I have a question in response to something you said...

Forgive me if it seems ignorant but what do you mean 'natural multiple' ? I mean I kind of understand that you mean non trauma based origins, correct? I'm not so naive to think that there must be trauma involved in order for someone to become multiple. It's just something I haven't heard a lot about.

Btw, I am a singleton but my boyfriend is multiple. I also want to thank all of you guys, particularly tir_nan_og & Khailitha for all of the insightful things you post here. My guys don't really 'do' the internet thing, but a lot of the feedback I tell them I get from here is helpful to them. They are absolutely amazed that other systems out there have commonalities with theirs. Thanks for helping me let them know they are not alone.

Sorry for the long post.

Brianne

[ex-khailitha846.livejournal.com]

Reading this again, I'm realizing just how broad an area the word "trauma" covers. Depending on the context and the audience, it could mean anything from working a meaningless job, getting in a car accident, getting yelled at by a teacher, or being raped at knifepoint.

I'd like to define "trauma" as We use it... Trauma is a situation that can easily be perceived as life threatening: a beating, a rape, neglect of someone too young to provide for themself THAT IS ALSO not validated in the social arena of the person who's life is at risk. I think the term "stress" should cover all the other occurances, including a life-threatening situation in which one is validated and the threat is adequately addressed. The physiology of trauma is such that the body induces a chemical, energetic state in order to deal with a life-threatening situation and it is only when that state can not be effectively discharged that the experience becomes pathological or chronic. If the surrounding environment is one that encourages the discharge of the "fight, flight or freeze" response, ie: with validation and protection, then the event, no matter what the level of actual danger, will be processed in such a way that it does not "traumatize" the person.

So, when _We_ talk about trauma, that is what We are talking about. I'm not sure if that is a common experience for most people. I'm guessing, not. If there is a link between trauma and self-harming behaviors, I think it would probably link up with fairly extreme experiences in a person's life, and not those situations that I would define as "stressful, not traumatic."

[ex-khailitha846.livejournal.com]

I posted Our definition of "trauma" above. You are right, life is harsh. Culture and history is full of commonplace occurences that society, now, views as harsh or brutal.

"Perhaps much of the current trend in this country toward deliberate self-harm stems from an unreasonable expectation that it should not be harsh."

Processing this... and, in part I think you are right. But, I think another huge factor is that in many of these harsher societies, the experience of the brutality is not denied. In many cultures, very painful and, to us, degrading practices are accepted as part of life and seem to cause very few ill effects in large segments of the population. I think this is because people are basically social (even elves are social... not as strictly hierarchal, and possibly different in other regards, but we do possess an instinct for grouping) and get many of their clues about reality and identity from observing those around them. So, when a life-threatening situation occurs, it is included in and creates no troubling contradiction with the persons social reality, and therefore creates no dilemmas, no paradox, and can be accepted as part of reality.

In Western society as it is currently conceptualized, it seems that so much brutality is denied, swept under the rug, kept secret, that those experiencing molestation, beatings, rapes, neglect, are essentially told to behave as if it wasn't happening, or as if it was their fault. This response to a life-threat offers no resolution for the emotional and physical energy that gets stuck in the body and soul. This response creates a severe split between the "inside" reality and the "outside" reality, and becomes a source of pain and confusion.

Now that I think about it, I wonder if this split between the situation you experienced in the time before and the kind of society and reality in which you find yourself now might not be a huge contributing factor in your own experience of distress and confusion. The dilemma of your existence might be alleviated a great deal if you were in a society which honored and validated your existence, and also honored and valued the paradigm of the culture which you have lost.

Hmmmm...

"Three bodies instead of one would be more convenient..."

How often We've longed for a cloning device that would allow Us to produce enough bodies for those who want their independence, and just let them go and be free.

%I guess straight cloning wouldn't work in your case, as you need bodies with different genders than the one you are in now. If you ever figure it out, let Us know. For more reasons than one *wink, wink*.%

=Be well friend, and pay them no heed if they disturb you. Young girls need to flirt and your sense of honor, regardless of your corporeal situation, means they are safe with you, so permission has been granted. If you are offended, please request them to stop.=

Sending light, dear Duathir!

[pengke.livejournal.com]

You might have a point here. The only reason we could see that multiples would be more likely to self injure than singles would be because it's a way for the oppressed people in the system to act out. The people you refer to as alters do go through a lot. They're denied their right to their life. They're told they only exist to protect the host. They forcibly prevented from using their body. They're told they have to obey the host. It's no wonder that when the stereotypical host/alter mode of operation is used so many of the alters wind up angry. And destructive behavior and harming the body can be one of the few ways they have of expressing their helplessness and anger at the situation.

On the other hand; multiples, especially ones with cooperative operation of their system, have assets that would make them less likely to harm themselves than singles. You have people who can prevent the person who would harm them from taking control of the body. You have the very fact that the person can not hurt themselves without hurting everyone else. You have a support system there for helping the person.

[tir-nan-og.livejournal.com]

Beautiful! I appreciate your making these points!

Hi Jess, Our Answers

[gia1977.livejournal.com]

Hi Jess, good questions to have asked. I had wondered these things myself. Strangely enough, my inner crew Jesse is the one who is into the S.I. stuff, I guess. I just know we occasionally cut and scratch a lot. I find ourselves biting lately. I know we tried the ice methods, markers, and have taken up physical exercise as means of coping. Journaling does help too, but that gets hard when I am co-con or median with my inner crew people. I know for our crew it has been a basis of being trauma based yes, as we didn't know any other alternatives, yet it's also something that is mutually shared with all of us, as we know it's gonna happen regardless of how much we beg for it not too. We can discuss options and hope for the best but at times, it's hard to control it. I'm not sure on if self harm and multiplicity has no intrinsic connection, so I will leave that question up to others who best know. Again, I don't speak for anyone except what we, in my crew, agree on. So, if what we said or do, doesn't agree with anyone, sorry, but we're speaking for ourselves only. Hope no one minds. We did like the questions though.

[whisperedones.livejournal.com]

Hiyas. We might've been a natural multiple (We remember more than one of Us before the abuse started), but We were abused as kids, so we cannot claim one or the other.

Anyway. We have four self-destructive Members in Our system, all four are cutters, one has an eating disorder (is that considered Self-Destructive? I think so) and one who bruises herself.

Before We knew We were a multiple, Ruby (the host) was cutting, so from my standpoint, I don't think the two are connected, I just think it's a coping mechanism that happens to be one that coincidentally, some members of multiple systems use.

-Cor

Re: Hi Jess, Our Answers

[ex-khailitha846.livejournal.com]

Thanks. I was hoping that each system would speak for themselves so there is no need to apologize.

Take care!

[jinxtigr.livejournal.com]

I attempted suicide rather than self-harm. (ha! what a sentence THAT is). I think to some extent it is because I absolutely had no hope of anyone understanding. Now that I know about self-harm, I can see situations where I would be drawn to it. Helplessness is a definite trigger, and not having my viewpoint acknowledged. Hell, there are times when tir_nan_og is upset beyond consoling and full of self-loathing and that's a kind of trigger too because it's like taking the person(s) I love away from me. I daresay my driven implacable work behaviors can be quite the same thing the other way- I can see the signs of it.
The connection I see is invalidation. I'm singlet but autistic and grew up being trained to act like an NT person, with very heavy expectations- that to my folks seemed perfectly natural and reasonable. It wasn't so much the failing of the expectations, it was their complete inability to instinctively understand my viewpoint. I felt non-real, or like an alien, mostly like a complete failure. Failure even at FEELING or being or existing. Something so horribly wrong- and I had to behave in learned ways and act as normal as possible.;
If I'd got into self-harming I'd have got HEAVY into it. The need was there, it just went unmet.
I had no capacity to 'be anybody else' who might pass muster. I'm not sure if I'm better or worse off for that, because I'm still living with the pressures of failing to comply. I may always have that, I don't know.

[tigrin.livejournal.com]

First... I'm not directing this at you, but when people say "self-harm" they almost always assume cutting. I can see how that would make an automatic connection, as one of the most commonly known forms of self-injury is cutting. But there are a lot of other means of harming yourself that don't involve blood necessarily. Starving or overeating... picking, scratching... hair pulling (trichotillomania). I have symptoms of the last two... I pull out my eyebrows and eyelashes (I don't have any at the moment, really, which is kind of annoying as stuff gets in your eyes), and I pick off acne on my face, which actually causes me to bleed and leaves scars. All this is done "subconciously", i.e. it's impulsive, I don't have complete control over it and I usually feel better once I've messed myself up. Most of the time I don't realize I'm doing it for a while. I don't start hacking at my face thinking "I want to hurt myself"... and I don't know how long I've been doing it, so I can't say when it started... years ago, perhaps from self-concious desires to fix my acne or my thick eyebrows to be more appealing to other people. It's not always a big trauma thing though I think it's definitely more often than not related to something psychologically.

The definition of "trauma" is kinda technical, at least I feel so... because one person's definition of what is traumatic to them is entirely different from someone else's perception. For someone, their traumatic breaking point might only come at a one-time, life-threatening event. But I don't think it has to be life-threatening to be traumatic, or only happen once. I think it could be something drawn out... anything that pushes someone's emotional capacity, over and over, especially if it's on a daily basis. I was teased brutally every day for a year in 7th grade. And while it was verbal abuse, it still was as hurtful as being consistently whipped, and this was every single day at school... and while physical pain goes away, emotional pain like that doesn't. It certainly wasn't life-threatening (as far as I know, no one ever threatened me physically) but I would still consider that somewhat traumatic.

but anyway. I think self-injury is not dependent either on trauma or multiplicity. There are many different reasons people self-injure.

Re: Must be said

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

A natural multiple is one whose multiplicity did not arise out of childhood abuse or trauma, but who was simply born that way.

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

Point taken re Blue Morpho, but the fact remains that for thousands of girls (and boys), self-harm, particularly cutting, is an imitative, meme-like behaviour. They see friends doing it to relieve stress or express frustration, so they do it. That doesn't mean it's always that way, and I don't think that's how Shiu meant it.

"The important thing is to not place too much emormity on the behaviors, even as you set in place rules to control them." I couldn't agree more: emphasising self-injury as a horrific, monstrously evil deed just makes it worse. There is something about this in I Never Promised You A Rose Garden... the behaviour must be taken seriously, but not too seriously.

[kao-no-san.livejournal.com]

Hmm.. Blood is the self-destructive one in the system, a bit less so now that she merged with Silvaren, but i have a number of scars on my left arm from her cutting. Most of the time Silvaren can keep her from hurting us, but it doesn't always work. We belive it was her that took the brunt of the trauma that we experenced when we were younger. She also seems to be the one that hold our two locked memories, since she gets very violent and protective when someone suggest undergoing hypnosis to remember them or to try and unlock them.

[aodhfionn.livejournal.com]

It's interesting... You can play victim in this all you want, but I'm not going to accept it until you present yourself as more than a vague outline.

Your journal info states that you "spent many years doing Regional Mental Health Intake and Counseling," and you offer your information as absolute fact until challenged. Even when challenged, you do not accept that you might have been in any error.

Sethrenn challenged your claim that most multiples are the result of trauma, and you countered by saying that not all multiples were. This is a distraction, not a rebuttal.

As for it being rare to have multiples without trauma. Welcome to the 20th century. I think you'll find it's rare for anyone to hit adulthood without some form of trauma.

If you really believe that most multiples result from trauma, and you really did intake counseling, then either you think most of us here are full of it, or you have somehow managed to miss the idea that a defensive reaction to questions from a traumatized person is a bad thing.

Even in a group of normal people, like this one, refusing to reveal anything at all about yourself when questioned seriously rubs my scales the wrong way. Here we are, some more than others *sheepish look*, trying to be open so that we can help other people and know we're not alone (among other reasons, I'm sure), and someone wanders along who likes offering advice but doesn't reveal a single thing about zirself.

Thanks to you and this "I shall keep myself to the shadows no matter how bright the lights get" bullshit, I'm actually going to have to make an introductory post to let people know who we are.

Yes, we. Unlike you, I'll at least state for the fact that we are multiple. Your lack of answer to that simple curiosity doesn't put me in a mind to take anything you say in a favorable light.

The last time I saw someone get defensive and play the victim the way you just did, she turned out to be a psych major writing her thesis without being honest to the people she was studying about herself, much less her purpose.

I refuse to squeak and run mazes.