Sexuality VS dual gender

[thecuteone33.livejournal.com]

Hiya -- I just posted something else about writing.  I'm kinda new to this community (not new to LJ -- just been inactive for a long time).  I've read a couple of threads/postings under the gender/sexuality topics. I'm not sure where I fit into all of this -- maybe I'm being a bit too label conscious.

I'm actually female -- "Carrie" I guess I'm the host -- is pretty happy with the parts I have. When I was young -- I started puberty early -- and I really had a hard time grasping gender roles/sexuality. Most of my alters were boys -- straight boys initially. I think that gender identity and sexuality was a fused concept for me then.  Girls weren't supposed to like girls and I hated having to wear a bra when i was 8, etc... I never liked being "Barbie" i wanted to always play "Ken" because I pictured myself with a Barbie.  As I had gotten older -- approaching my 20's -- my male alters started to become more bisexual/gay but I came out as a bisexual woman (yes in college hate to perpetuate the stereotype).  I still have a lot of issues with men but I still identify as bisexual -- and my male alters tend to be more gay in identity but more straight in action.  Does this make any sense??

I wonder if most people with DID/MPD have more of a fluid sexuality?  Does having different gendered alters is a factor?  Does trauma (sexual abuse) play a part as well?  What about Gender identity?  Does that get mixed up with sexual identity?  Love to hear feedback about this.

--Carrie--

Comments

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

Gender and sexuality may be more fluid, for singlets as well as plurals, than many people would like to believe. After your previous entry, I'm a bit curious: do you actually have DID or MPD, or are you just multiple?

Not sure about the terminology...

[thecuteone33.livejournal.com]

I'm not familar with the newer terminology DID vs MPD or being multiple.

At first I didn't think myself as being multiple -- but a small number of alters -- I don't do a lot of switching and when I do it's a rare occurance and I'm never "out" just have no control over what's going to be said/done. 25 years ago was a different story.

But I don't know what it's like being a singlet either... I've always had internal conversations long as I could remember. I thought that MPD is also called DID? Or is there a difference?? I know every version of the DSM terminology changes and some disorders fall under different classifications...

Re: Not sure about the terminology...

[lb-lee.livejournal.com]

DID/MPD is a diagnosis concerning fronting, memory problems, and also 'disorder.' Being multiple generally means having more than one person in a body, regardless of memory or disorganization. Does that explanation make sense?

So, for instance, if you share a body with your imaginary friend, even if he never fronts, or you never lose memory, then you can be multiple, but not MPD/DID.

Re: Not sure about the terminology...

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

Perhaps this would help. (http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?user=multiplicity&keyword=multiple+without+did/mpd&filter=all)

What I was asking was: do you actually believe you have dissociative identity disorder or multiple personality disorder, or have you been diagnosed as having either condition? Or are you using those terms to describe the simple experience of being multiple? *points to what baaing_tree says*

Many people do not know the difference and think that all multiplicity is MPD or DID. MPD is not DID; the description and treatment guidelines were radically revised following the overdiagnosis scandals and lawsuits of the 80s and 90s.

In any case, I have no direct answers for your questions, because these things are a matter of personal experience. What is true for you will not be true for others. I do know that many groups include persons who are opposite-gender to the body, and that group members have the same variety of sexual orientations and gender identities as singlets.

Re: Not sure about the terminology...

[thecuteone33.livejournal.com]

ksol -- thanks for the link...

from first glance then I'd say that I'm multiple without DID -- I don't lose time (not in the past 25-30 yrs anyways) when soemone else fronts...

But I DO disassociate!!!.. What is it called -- fugue states??? Sometimes when I'm in a situation -- I can't process it what's going on. (usually takes me a day or two). This generally happens with sexual situations, out on a date or if I'm witnessing friends/people getting physical... I've also been in social situations when I get overwhelmed -- usually course of action is leaving...

Far as not remembering traumatic events -- yes -- that I've done -- I hate the traditional notion of flashbacks -- been there done that. It's either I'm re-experiencing something as someone else (different viewpoint) or I'm experiencing something that's happened in the past for the first time.

I dunno if that stuff falls under DID...or PTSD (I assume that with trauma multiplicity PTSD can be a byproduct)...

it's been a while since I've read the DSM...

Thanks for the info though...

Re: Not sure about the terminology...

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

The current psychiatric view, more or less, is that DID is a mistaken belief that several minds coexist in one body, and that this ideation forms as a defense mechanism in response to childhood trauma. I understand that some people actually experience dissociative identity disorder, but it is not at all the same as simply being multiple. Dissociation, flashbacks, or blanking out of traumatic events, as in PTSD, do not appear to be an intrinsic part of multiplicity, going by our and others' experiences.

As far as I know, a fugue state is a type of memory lapse where one typically wakes up in an unfamiliar place, having lost several hours' to several months' worth of time, e.g., Ansel Bourne.

Re: Not sure about the terminology...

[thecuteone33.livejournal.com]

Well I know I've had traumatic events in my childhood (I have no memory of but I know these things did in fact happen)... But it might be more "chicken or the egg" theory -- I think I was multiple before trauma stepped into the foray.

I do know that very often I can't process things that happen -- emotionally - it's hard to describe -- I dunno if I could describe it as being in a movie -- just can't process it -- takes me a day or so. I'm sure that's a form of disassociation -- have no idea what that's called.

But I don't - or haven't in the past two decades lose time while an alter is fronting. I've actually two experiences of losing time -- pretty short -- no longer than an hour.

So I dunno what the label would be...I hate living outside the box sometimes...

Re: Not sure about the terminology...

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

Why even bother with a label? And are they alters or persons?

Re: Not sure about the terminology...

[thecuteone33.livejournal.com]

What's the difference between alters vs persons?...

(then I can give you my answer)

Re: Not sure about the terminology...

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

Alter is the word generally used by mental health professionals to describe the members of a multiple system, in an MPD or DID context (since non-disordered multiplicity isn't officially recognised). Generally, although there are exceptions, the predominant view as we understand it is that alters are compartmentalized emotions, ego or feeling states, and/or memories which have been personified. They are not seen as independent people in their own right but as parts or pieces of a single person. (More at http://www.astraeasweb.net/plural/issd-tgl-2005.txt)

Some groups, including members of this community, perceive themselves as consisting of one main person with a number of subsidiary alters, and they call them that (some also say "parts"). Others experience coexisting with a number of independent, individual persons.

If you feel that the people with whom you converse, etc., are not people but aspects or alters, then by all means call them that (and remember that they may see things differently).

Many community members, ourselves included, do not view their multiplicity in terms of the above psychiatric definitions. If these definitions work for you, use them; if not, you need not constrain yourself to them.

[krystale.livejournal.com]

I agree with the above comment. Additionally several gays in one system is exactally like what it's like when we hang out with a group of our gay friends. Some people gawk here, some there... it's... not really any different, except that several gays internally causes the same problems that any sexually or romantically active system has, which is difficulty agreeing because of different preferances. The same would hold true of those gay friends of mine if the group was forced to choose together.

The switch from Straight/gay/bi...

[thecuteone33.livejournal.com]

Once I started dealing with my own sexuality -- it was decided that the other alter should go through his own crisis with it..and instead of him being "straight"...become more identified as being gay/bisexual.

Several interesting things came out of it -- I am very comfortable with the bisexual label even though most people would corner me as a dyke (I've been in a relationship with a woman for 8 years), Charlie my alter -- never was comfortable with any label, but as time went on -- he identified more as being gay. Now -- I think he's comfortable with the label, I dunno if he should go back to being straight cuz I'm more into women or not, I dunno he identifies more as being gay...

Kinda weird? Is there a blur between gender roles and sexuality? I think My alters are more keyed into gender roles than sexuality and confuses the two (Me too for that matter)

Re: The switch from Straight/gay/bi...

[linnai.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry. I am curious. How was it that Charlie determined his sexual identity and why would you want him to be something other than he is sexually because you are something else?

Re: The switch from Straight/gay/bi...

[thecuteone33.livejournal.com]

To answer your question...I'm not exactly sure how that developed -- if he started the longings before I came out or was it vice versa...

I think there had been a lot of confusion with gender identity vs sexuality (to this day that still exists to a certain extent). I think when I started to come to terms with being bisexual and that I'm attracted to women -- he started to feel more comfortable with sexuality too as well. I'm not sure how much of it him mirroring what I"m going through or if it's really in reverse.

I think he's trying to process the same thing that I'm processing so he could understand it. There's a large part of him that equates some of this with his precedessor. (there's more to this part of the story I'm omitting here).

I dunno if I forced him to be one way or another -- I think it was more of a gradual process.

One interesting point...

[thecuteone33.livejournal.com]

It's interesting that you mentoined that the straight male system member had no desire to form an outside relationship...

What if you do have a member that's feeling frustrated by this? (I've had to deal with that off and on)...

My partner's not big on polyamory (I've been in both poly and Mono relationships) but she's okay if I cheat (I'm NOT OK with that)...Sometimes my alter has an intense need to explore more sexually...

How do you handle it?

Re: One interesting point...

[thecuteone33.livejournal.com]

Commodity_sign -- yeah...we've been working on this part. Part of the problem is that my partner doesn't really want to have sex -- so we don't often (once a month at most).

Part of what I'm feeling from that alter that wants to experiment -- is that he's younger -- his teens and probably feels that he's missed out on the stuff that boys do as teenagers -- and I don't think he wants to pursue another relatinship -- I think he just wants to go through "rites of passage" however selfish it feels or is sometime -- but I have to remind myself -- we're two distinct systems -- he doesn't have as much life/relationship experience as I have.

He knows this -- just that the urge sometimes becomes frequent and strong at times...

Re: One interesting point...

[thecuteone33.livejournal.com]

Has my alter talked to my partner directly? Um..no...He tends to shy away from coming out in this way generally.

I'm not sure if my partner is prepared to have this conversation, it was hard enough telling her about it. I don't know if she's ever picked up on my switching -- part of me's afraid to ask. My partner's pretty linear -- asking her to suspend her disbelief -- kinda hard.

Plus -- I'm not sure if he knows where to start or if he trusts her enough to do it and explain to her -- he's not speaking on myself and we're two distinct personalities...and what she knows about me -- throw it out of the window...

But I know -- that day will come or that conversation will need to happen.

How do I prepare her for it??

FYI -- thanks for all of the feedback -- I greatly appreciate it.. :)

Re: One interesting point...

[thecuteone33.livejournal.com]

I've described snippets of him to her but um..no..not that I'm aware of..

I probably oughta start asking her if she's ever noticed differences in my mood or demeanor in a short period of time and ask her what she noticed that was different. I guess that's a place to start.

I think the idea of talking to her directly scares the shit out of me - and Charlie too. He's had a lot of animosity torwards his precedessor that usually liked having an audience - and I think it's the thought of that causes him to be cautious/hesitant to do it. (there's a long story with that...) Maybe he's a control freak and by taking over, I think he equates it with lack of control. (I don't but it is also means I'd have to be extremely vulnerable)

Re: One interesting point...

[thecuteone33.livejournal.com]

Max -- I just sent you a friend request/invite.. :)

I appreciate all of the great comments I've received..

--Carrie--

[hold-me-coldly.livejournal.com]

Hi Carrie! It's Leigh!

You may want to try fragmentedminds if you're not a member there yet. It's more DID/MPD-oriented. ;o)

Hiya Leigh!!

[thecuteone33.livejournal.com]

Hiya Leigh..

I just sent out a friend request (if you don't mind!)...Thanks -- I'll add that community in a minute...

Nice to see you here on LJ -- I actually like the multiplicity & DID support communities here -- very different from tribe.net

--Carrie--

Re: Hiya Leigh!!

[hold-me-coldly.livejournal.com]

Don't mind at all! I'll go add ya now. (I update here incessantly. I'm a lot more comfortable with the navigation here than Tribe. Been using it a LOT longer.)

-Leigh

Re: Hiya Leigh!!

[thecuteone33.livejournal.com]

:-) Great I should get the notification shortly...

[tej-agni.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I know I'm female and like this body is female too but I know that most of the others in the group know what gender they are I guess. I don't think any of them have changed genders but I don't know that for sure. I haven't gone around and asked them or anything lol I guess anything's possible right? though like I don't have mpd or anything and I'm not plural but I'm part of a plural group. ♥
LeAnne

[shade-durza.livejournal.com]

Very interesting questions you got there.
I'm transgendered myself. This body was born as a female but I feel it should have been male and I'm currently working towards that. As long as I know I've been bi-sexual but I see that as something completely seperate from the gender-identity.
I know a lot of other transsexuals and they don't change their sexual identity after their body changes. The very few that think they have done this were usually afraid to come out as gay and can now enjoy a more safer straight relationship which is more easily accepted. I almost never heard of any stories the other way around i.e. from straight to bi/gay. It gets confusing doesn't it? :)

And then we still have to add the multiple factor to it, but personally I do not believe it has anything to do with it. Although the others are all male I do not think that makes me transgender. If I was happy with a female body I would have kept it that way even if a million guys would be inside me. I still wouldn't be happy with my body if all the others were females for that matter.

Sexual abuse can play a part in how you develop and leaves a lasting impression on your sexual identity but not on your gender identity. If people who have been abused think they have the wrong gender it's usually because they feel their own body is dirty or think they can escape their past by changing who they are. I know psychologists are really careful when somebody applies for a gender-change and has been abused because almost all of them regret the change afterwards.

I'm just lucky that I've been in contact with very good therapists and other transsexuals in a support group where we discuss these topics frequently. :)

[sethrenn.livejournal.com]

Well, we used to think we had "gender confusion" because there were times when we felt female and times when we felt male and others when we felt androgynous/both/neither and times when we felt we wanted transition and other times when we didn't... *shrug* But a lot of the "confusion" came from us being forced to think and act as one person, and pretend to identify with the body, when we were actually of different genders.

Since we've been able to sort out more of who was fronting when (in our past), the reasons for some of the "gender-confused" feelings have become a lot more obvious.

[thecuteone33.livejournal.com]

Sethrenn..thanks for your comment.

There were two issues with me -- Gender identity and Sexuality. I think like most people in the U.S....we take those two things as being the same thing -- but they're not.

I didn't relate to what "girls" were supposed to be -- and my own body developed early and I wasn't accepting it. I didn't relate to being a mother/wife for a husband/boyfriend figure. I related to being the opposite, and I liked girls. The gender identity was resolved probably late teens...sexuality not until my early/mid 20's.

Damn it's so complicated! I do feel like a guy...and my friends tell me this...more male-minded I guess and it was drilled in me that I could not be a girl and be "male-minded" so I created selves that could be just that.

I understand what you were saying about Confusion from being forced to think and act as one person and identify with my body parts...

[sethrenn.livejournal.com]

I think like most people in the U.S....we take those two things as being the same thing -- but they're not.

*nodnod* I've known several people who went through that, really. I'm stereotypically "girly" in some ways (I like trying on new clothes, new personal care products, etc) but not so much in others (my tastes in entertainment).

But there were definately some people in here who used to go "omg, I don't want to play with Barbies and I'd rather play video games and I don't want to get married, does that mean I'm really a boy." It seems funny now, but... when you don't know any better, it feels like serious business (and not in the "lol internets" sense either :p)

Gender issues/Gender Play

[thecuteone33.livejournal.com]

I wasn't a complete tomboy though...although there are pics of me at age two with a football helmet holding a football (Not a fan of the game either).

But I didn't relate to the "stereotypical" roles of women/girls. With hormones kicking in early and not realy understanding how all of related...it was hard.

I enjoy playacting (roleplaying) and when I did play barbies I WAS ALWAYS KEN and my girlfriends played barbie/female characters. Unfortunately that led to me being really manipulative/controlling with my actual friends. I was really insistent on playing male roles and I really didn't understand why.

There was a sexual component to all of this -- which became a battle between two alters... :(

I'm still sorting that out...

[weirdiguess.livejournal.com]

Think a lot of stuff affects it. The first person here is a little fluid but that's just her. The big thing here seems to be sharing a head. You share a brain with someone and stick around them 24/7, it's going to affect how you think. I don't really like it but it happens and I just try to avoid it best I can. Selene seems to think abuse can affect it too. Don't see why it shouldn't.

w00t

[devcandy.livejournal.com]

I just wanted to make a cheering noise for your bringing up that people in the same group can influence each other just as is the case with "external" groups.

It's something I've seen people try to use against groups, which makes some groups try to prevent it, and it just gets messy.

Arashi （嵐）

being queer

[zamisista.livejournal.com]

sorry i'm a bit late to add a comment, but wanted to share our xperience. we had two males, several girls/women and some ungendered beings in our system. for a long time, we used to have two or more relationships as a system, to keep everyone happy. basically the little ones liked big strong men, JD who is a teenage boy liked femme women and the big one liked butch women. anyway that all got too complicated and people were upset even though it was all open relationships. so then we cut back to one man, and tried to keep JD from doing his thing. which didn't always work. so then JD came out and ditched the guy after we were married, and it was a big mess. my point is that trying to stuff the desires of one of our family members only worked for so long and then it all fell apart.

more recently, one of the boys in our system became a girl (that's a different story, she was hiding out as a boy), and JD integrated with me, and we became a lesbian/queer woman who likes butches. so now we only have one relationship. Our partner is a partner to all of us who are old enough to have a partner, and she talks to and acknowledges all of us as important and having rights. now we have a fluid sexuality with one sexual partner, playing different roles depending on who is out (not to be too graphic!). And we identify as a queer system which is less limited than saying we are a lesbian (therefore female). I think it is important to find ways to honor and express the desires of all family members that are old enough, while respecting any prior relationship. and to introduce your partner to your other inside family members (alters).

hope this helps.
J, J system

Re: being queer

[thecuteone33.livejournal.com]

Thanks for your response.. :)

Everyone's had excellent/different feedback.. :)

It's interesting that my male alter -- his sexuality became more fluid to sync in with what's going on with me...

:-)

carrie