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Nov. 23rd, 2006 09:56 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
dacnomaniac.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
multiplicity_archivesSo, this is a question I posed to two members of the community...
"This is very complex shit. Sigh. I still feel like a singlet, except I know I'm not one and I also feel each distinct aspect very individually. Does that make sense? Is that how you experience it? Regardless of who's fronting I always feel like 'me', just a different sort of 'me', and yet as noted, I can also talk to the other 'me's as though they were seperate, and they interact without 'my' urging, 'I' don't control them, and... well, fuck, they're not the same as 'Me'. But I'm still ultimately one being. I think. Is this a normal manifestation of plurality or am I just extremely confused?"
I'm no longer so sure of any of that, but it's the basis for the rest of this post. And I'd still like to hear what other people think about that.
This started as a reply to a comment, but it got too long, and, honestly, I wonder what other people's input is too. I'm so sorry for cluttering the community but I'm not sure where else to go for input here. (Also, because it was mentioned -- I'm not after backpatting, albeit I don't want to have my balls ripped off and danced upon either. I want input and information from people who know this stuff better than I do, that's all. Say what you're thinking even if you think I won't like it or I'll disagree with it. *Every* piece of non-fluffy information will be used in my self-exploration. I'll probably be at this very intently until I feel like I've worked it all out and since you're the best-only resource we have, we'll probably make total asses of ourself until I'm satisfied.
Oh dear. Our pronouns are slipping. That's another thing I'll need to try to standardise, as at the moment I honestly have no idea which feels more appropriate. Really, 'I' when referring to myself, 'I' when referring to Myself as a whole (the head-pack) and 'we' when referring to us as a group of individuals seems best, but too confusing for others. I dunno...
If I'm making a mess and being overly noisy please, *please* tell us. I, Delve, would *much* prefer to know what I'm doing wrong so as to put a stop to it than continue blithely along pissing people off. 'Cet doesn't really care in the persistent drive towards information, but that's what I'm here for, to keep us all under control and out of trouble as best as possible.
Anyhow...
That's actually the exact part that I'm stuck on. (Albeit the question at this point isn't one of plurality but rather whether what I think of as 'me' is a plurality or just a heavily-compartmentalised singularity, as, having done some more research, I've discovered that many of the things that I've always thought of as 'my characters' have evolved far beyond that point and, if I were introducing myself in the context of having *them* in my head there'd be no question at all. They are individual, wholly seperate little sentiences who 'live' in my head. Simple as that. It's Me that's got me all confused.) As I mentioned, I usually have a sense of myself as 'I' -- but I also, simultaneously, experience myself as 'we'. I've been using a puzzle analogy, I think... it's like a pack-mind or a hive-mind, and it used to be that we were so close that it never occured to me that there were places where one genuinely ended and another began. But it's becoming more and more clear that there are concrete, significant, immutable divides, especially between, say, Delve and White Light, or the Watcher and Blood-in-the-Fog. And when I go inside myself, I have the experience of being myself, but *also* of specifically 'being' 'Cet in a conversation with the others, who are also me but at the same time not.
I'm having a really hard time finding words to explain this, so I'm not at all surprised you're getting a strong impression of singularity. It's entirely possible that I'm literally having conversations with myself, too, and I'm putting up walls where none exist. Given the shock and turmoil that happened earlier, and given that I was *not* in control when Fog made his move, I'm inclined to doubt that, but... I've also had some seemingly unrelated psychotic disturbances lately which could be the source of this.
Basically what I'm looking for right now is information and input, not reassurance. I very much appreciate the honest input. Though the conclusion I'm coming to is that I'm getting a false impression of unity from misunderstanding phenomena you guys experience regularly which are different from my expectation of what plurality would be like. The Glossary section of that one website whose name I forget is extremely helpful. We all think of ourselves as 'I', which is also part of the confusion, I think. But anyhow, the Glossary was *very* useful. I have learnt about 'co-fronting', for example, and I honestly think that's where a lot of my perception of oneness is coming from... I had the paradigm in my head that one personality fronted all the time and the others were totally, utterly seperate people who were 'dormant' when not in control of the body, and that I should therefore have lapses of time when someone other than whoever 'I' am was dominant.
From reading the stories of other community members, and the Glossary, though, I'm learning that that is not, actually, the usual case, and that it's quite normal for the other identities to be awake and 'active' even when not in control of the body, and for more than one identity to cluster 'up front', even if only one is actually at the wheel, so to speak. Is this a correct interpretation of the information?
If so, I think that's what's confusing me for the most part. My head-pack (that's what it feels like, now that I've smoothed out some of the confusion; an *exceedingly* close pack) is continuously active and there's rarely fewer than three identities actively 'fronting', though as I noted only one ever has the wheel, but the others are all generally at least paying attention to what's going on, if not actively commenting and participating. Combine that with all of us thinking of ourselves as an 'I' that's part of a 'we', and you get the confusing sensation of united plurality.
That's my current running theory, anyhow. My in lower-case meaning 'Cet, with input from Delve and the Watcher. Knife-Smile thinks this is all humanistic prattle about something simple, innate, and obvious; White Light thinks of us all as spirits sharing a body and again is nonplussed by the fuss; Blood-in-the-Fog is just jealous because heit doesn't get to 'front'; Drrkhn is essentially of Knife-Smile's opinion but with an extra note of condescion as though this should all go without saying, as *he* knows he is himself but also Us and therefore we should all be cognizant of it the same way; and the Watcher is doing what it always does: absorbing everything with minimal, extremely logical, contributions.
'Cet thinks that itself shows we're plural. Delve thinks it could be me deceiving myself, or talking to characters with those names instead of the actual personality aspects (I do have some self-named characters, as I occasionally enjoy reasonable self-insert RP, but the characters usually end up *very* different from their originating aspect.)
I don't know. I-'Cet feels pretty confident about these conclusions, but there's still a heavy sense of uncertainty from Delve. I'm wondering if my GAD (anxiety disorder) is making me less certain about it than I otherwise would be... Any non-back-patting thoughts? :p
(I'm thinking of posting this, and that other excerpt, plus some commentary about [and possibly from] those characters of mine self-actualised enough to consider part of the 'system', although my 'head-pack' and the others seem like two totally different groups to me... maybe that's just because I haven't spent much time with them in a while.)
... Do you guys roleplay? I feel like I could get a handle on this experience more easily if I spent some time in each aspect's shoes, or even with some of the seed-pack (the characters; I call them that because most of them grew from an idea-seed with little or no help from me.) Or at least help myself get more accustomed to the idea. I haven't been able to RP in *ages*. (And by you guys, I mean the whole community, not just your system. :p) I'd make a post inviting people to do it but I don't know if it's appropriate.
Incidentally, I'm curious... who are you? Do you feel 100% seperate and distinct as an entity from the other people in your system, like people who used to be strangers now roommates or friends sharing living space? Because for me as I said it's like a very well-bonded pack, with threads of blood connecting most of the members (Drrkhn begat 'Cet with Delve and the original Predator aspect; Knife-Smile and White Light generated Blood-in-the-Fog; Delve is White Light's brother in coyoteness) with the others, according to the pack-paradigm metaphor, having been adopted to freshen the blood and strengthen the group. I guess. That's the best metaphor I can think of for the bonding I feel within us, the so-close-we're-one-but-still-seperate.
In fact it's a lot like what my real-world pack would be like if we shared a body as well as spirit. My real-world pack feels like one spirit in six bodies. This is mostly like one spirit in one body (with the obvious exception of Fog,) but still with several distinct minds. Does that make sense?
Again, if we start cluttering the place up, or just get obnoxious in general, please say as much so we can mend our ways accordingly. Any and all input is appreciated and will be considered. Thanks in advance. :)
--'Cet and Delve
"This is very complex shit. Sigh. I still feel like a singlet, except I know I'm not one and I also feel each distinct aspect very individually. Does that make sense? Is that how you experience it? Regardless of who's fronting I always feel like 'me', just a different sort of 'me', and yet as noted, I can also talk to the other 'me's as though they were seperate, and they interact without 'my' urging, 'I' don't control them, and... well, fuck, they're not the same as 'Me'. But I'm still ultimately one being. I think. Is this a normal manifestation of plurality or am I just extremely confused?"
I'm no longer so sure of any of that, but it's the basis for the rest of this post. And I'd still like to hear what other people think about that.
This started as a reply to a comment, but it got too long, and, honestly, I wonder what other people's input is too. I'm so sorry for cluttering the community but I'm not sure where else to go for input here. (Also, because it was mentioned -- I'm not after backpatting, albeit I don't want to have my balls ripped off and danced upon either. I want input and information from people who know this stuff better than I do, that's all. Say what you're thinking even if you think I won't like it or I'll disagree with it. *Every* piece of non-fluffy information will be used in my self-exploration. I'll probably be at this very intently until I feel like I've worked it all out and since you're the best-only resource we have, we'll probably make total asses of ourself until I'm satisfied.
Oh dear. Our pronouns are slipping. That's another thing I'll need to try to standardise, as at the moment I honestly have no idea which feels more appropriate. Really, 'I' when referring to myself, 'I' when referring to Myself as a whole (the head-pack) and 'we' when referring to us as a group of individuals seems best, but too confusing for others. I dunno...
If I'm making a mess and being overly noisy please, *please* tell us. I, Delve, would *much* prefer to know what I'm doing wrong so as to put a stop to it than continue blithely along pissing people off. 'Cet doesn't really care in the persistent drive towards information, but that's what I'm here for, to keep us all under control and out of trouble as best as possible.
Anyhow...
That's actually the exact part that I'm stuck on. (Albeit the question at this point isn't one of plurality but rather whether what I think of as 'me' is a plurality or just a heavily-compartmentalised singularity, as, having done some more research, I've discovered that many of the things that I've always thought of as 'my characters' have evolved far beyond that point and, if I were introducing myself in the context of having *them* in my head there'd be no question at all. They are individual, wholly seperate little sentiences who 'live' in my head. Simple as that. It's Me that's got me all confused.) As I mentioned, I usually have a sense of myself as 'I' -- but I also, simultaneously, experience myself as 'we'. I've been using a puzzle analogy, I think... it's like a pack-mind or a hive-mind, and it used to be that we were so close that it never occured to me that there were places where one genuinely ended and another began. But it's becoming more and more clear that there are concrete, significant, immutable divides, especially between, say, Delve and White Light, or the Watcher and Blood-in-the-Fog. And when I go inside myself, I have the experience of being myself, but *also* of specifically 'being' 'Cet in a conversation with the others, who are also me but at the same time not.
I'm having a really hard time finding words to explain this, so I'm not at all surprised you're getting a strong impression of singularity. It's entirely possible that I'm literally having conversations with myself, too, and I'm putting up walls where none exist. Given the shock and turmoil that happened earlier, and given that I was *not* in control when Fog made his move, I'm inclined to doubt that, but... I've also had some seemingly unrelated psychotic disturbances lately which could be the source of this.
Basically what I'm looking for right now is information and input, not reassurance. I very much appreciate the honest input. Though the conclusion I'm coming to is that I'm getting a false impression of unity from misunderstanding phenomena you guys experience regularly which are different from my expectation of what plurality would be like. The Glossary section of that one website whose name I forget is extremely helpful. We all think of ourselves as 'I', which is also part of the confusion, I think. But anyhow, the Glossary was *very* useful. I have learnt about 'co-fronting', for example, and I honestly think that's where a lot of my perception of oneness is coming from... I had the paradigm in my head that one personality fronted all the time and the others were totally, utterly seperate people who were 'dormant' when not in control of the body, and that I should therefore have lapses of time when someone other than whoever 'I' am was dominant.
From reading the stories of other community members, and the Glossary, though, I'm learning that that is not, actually, the usual case, and that it's quite normal for the other identities to be awake and 'active' even when not in control of the body, and for more than one identity to cluster 'up front', even if only one is actually at the wheel, so to speak. Is this a correct interpretation of the information?
If so, I think that's what's confusing me for the most part. My head-pack (that's what it feels like, now that I've smoothed out some of the confusion; an *exceedingly* close pack) is continuously active and there's rarely fewer than three identities actively 'fronting', though as I noted only one ever has the wheel, but the others are all generally at least paying attention to what's going on, if not actively commenting and participating. Combine that with all of us thinking of ourselves as an 'I' that's part of a 'we', and you get the confusing sensation of united plurality.
That's my current running theory, anyhow. My in lower-case meaning 'Cet, with input from Delve and the Watcher. Knife-Smile thinks this is all humanistic prattle about something simple, innate, and obvious; White Light thinks of us all as spirits sharing a body and again is nonplussed by the fuss; Blood-in-the-Fog is just jealous because heit doesn't get to 'front'; Drrkhn is essentially of Knife-Smile's opinion but with an extra note of condescion as though this should all go without saying, as *he* knows he is himself but also Us and therefore we should all be cognizant of it the same way; and the Watcher is doing what it always does: absorbing everything with minimal, extremely logical, contributions.
'Cet thinks that itself shows we're plural. Delve thinks it could be me deceiving myself, or talking to characters with those names instead of the actual personality aspects (I do have some self-named characters, as I occasionally enjoy reasonable self-insert RP, but the characters usually end up *very* different from their originating aspect.)
I don't know. I-'Cet feels pretty confident about these conclusions, but there's still a heavy sense of uncertainty from Delve. I'm wondering if my GAD (anxiety disorder) is making me less certain about it than I otherwise would be... Any non-back-patting thoughts? :p
(I'm thinking of posting this, and that other excerpt, plus some commentary about [and possibly from] those characters of mine self-actualised enough to consider part of the 'system', although my 'head-pack' and the others seem like two totally different groups to me... maybe that's just because I haven't spent much time with them in a while.)
... Do you guys roleplay? I feel like I could get a handle on this experience more easily if I spent some time in each aspect's shoes, or even with some of the seed-pack (the characters; I call them that because most of them grew from an idea-seed with little or no help from me.) Or at least help myself get more accustomed to the idea. I haven't been able to RP in *ages*. (And by you guys, I mean the whole community, not just your system. :p) I'd make a post inviting people to do it but I don't know if it's appropriate.
Incidentally, I'm curious... who are you? Do you feel 100% seperate and distinct as an entity from the other people in your system, like people who used to be strangers now roommates or friends sharing living space? Because for me as I said it's like a very well-bonded pack, with threads of blood connecting most of the members (Drrkhn begat 'Cet with Delve and the original Predator aspect; Knife-Smile and White Light generated Blood-in-the-Fog; Delve is White Light's brother in coyoteness) with the others, according to the pack-paradigm metaphor, having been adopted to freshen the blood and strengthen the group. I guess. That's the best metaphor I can think of for the bonding I feel within us, the so-close-we're-one-but-still-seperate.
In fact it's a lot like what my real-world pack would be like if we shared a body as well as spirit. My real-world pack feels like one spirit in six bodies. This is mostly like one spirit in one body (with the obvious exception of Fog,) but still with several distinct minds. Does that make sense?
Again, if we start cluttering the place up, or just get obnoxious in general, please say as much so we can mend our ways accordingly. Any and all input is appreciated and will be considered. Thanks in advance. :)
--'Cet and Delve
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Date: 2006-11-24 06:10 am (UTC)And yeah, Rob and I are both roleplayers. (Oh, how I wish we could GM for each other, but it doesn't work. We can read each other's minds and spoil the plot.) And there's definitely a tendency for our characters to resemble the other brother. I'm not really sure why that is, unless it's mutual admiration... *looks at Rob* *snicker* *pause* *guffaw* Okay, well, maybe not.
Anyway. Rob's my brother. I definitely feel like a different person, but we're not completely separate. We get blendy when we're not paying attention, and emotions can leak back and forth.
As for how to tell if you're really multiple... well, it really comes down to what you feel, but more usefully, I'd guess anything that can get mad about not being treated as a separate person is probably a separate person.
Johnny
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Date: 2006-11-24 11:57 pm (UTC)We've wanted to do this before, and decided not to for the same reasons. We might go ahead with it, anyway--when we're not so into WoW.