(no subject)

[pengke.livejournal.com]

I’m sure everyone has read someone’s post on this community or read a comment that made you stop and think, “I don’t believe you.” If you haven’t, either you don’t read the threads very closely or you work very hard not to think critically about anything you read here, because there have been some very outrageous claims made here over the years. (But that’s an entirely different discussion.) I want to know what people think when they come across one of these statements that they just can’t believe.

Do you:

A) Think the person is lying.
B) Think the person is knowingly role playing
C) Think the person believes that they are multiple but is probably unintentionally role playing or some other form of imagination
D) Think the system is lying about the experiences
E) Think the system is knowingly or unintentionally role playing the experiences
F) Think the system is adhering to the community’s cultural norms/trying to fit in
G) Think the system probably honestly believes their claims even though another explanation seems more logical to you
H) Think the system probably started out making things up but has since convinced themselves that their claims are true
I) Worry that you might be making things up too or that someone else might think you are
J) Think something else entirely – please share

Also, do your thoughts change depending on why you can’t believe the statement? For example, is there a difference between someone claiming to do/be something that you think is impossible and someone contradicting themselves or claiming that something happened in real life that could not have happened?

Comments

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

Well... when you say you "don't believe in elves", what exactly does that mean? Because I don't believe in storybook elves either, any more than I believe in King Arthur as he's depicted in storybooks. However, there's a good deal of evidence that the stories of King Arthur do have a real historical basis, and there's also plenty of evidence (http://www.shelltown.net/~dangweth/elfsaga.html) that the stories of elves have a real historical basis.

My ancestry is northern Danish; as you'll note from the reference cited, it's not at all uncommon among Scandinavians (even in this modern era) to believe in elves, and to believe that some people are descended from elves. I've got all of what are traditionally considered to be the classic signs of such descent, so... *shrugs*.

Whatever 'elven ancestry' may mean on a genetic level, it definitely doesn't mean I don't have to live in the same world as everybody else. I'm not going to live a thousand years, nor is any grey ship coming to take me into the West, nor do I get any kind of "racial superiority points" which entitle me to anything I haven't earned by my own efforts. That last assumption is the one that usually rankles people the most, but it's bogus - 'different' doesn't mean better or worse; it just means different.

I have to wonder, if the Native Americans had all been assimilated or killed off before the age of modern record-keeping, would there now be people saying "I don't believe in Indians, so I think it's impossible that anyone is genetically Indian"? It seems likely.

"G) Think the system probably honestly believes their claims"

Ummm... just as a point of accuracy, 'the system' in this particular case doesn't believe anything at all. I have my opinions on the whole "elf thing"; I've stated my reasons for holding them, and I've provided verifiable documentation to support those reasons. However, Kír does not share those opinions - he maintains that he has no opinion on this subject, no interest in it, and no intention of being drawn into discussions about it. If Crist-Erui has any opinion about it (which is possible but doesn't seem too probable) he hasn't ever expressed it. We are three individuals; we don't necessarily agree on any given topic any more than three individuals with separate bodies might.

"There is no possibility that this could have taken place because they wouldn't have been able to contact the organization at that time and the organization wouldn't have been able to respond that rapidly."

I must have missed this, and since I don't know the details, I'm not in a position to judge whether or not you're correct. However, in this age of e-mail, it doesn't seem impossible or even improbable that a representative of an organization could receive and reply to a query over a weekend.

"Now, this one is a very clear case where the member had to either be lying or delusional. It's less clear when you run into a multiple that says that they're physically pregnant but when the guys use the body they're not pregnant anymore. Obviously, this can't physically happen but it's possible that the multiple in question might believe that it's true."

I'm not seeing the distinction between 'being delusional' and 'believing that something which physically can't happen does physically happen'. Pregnancy isn't a matter of opinion or definition, nor is there any difficulty about verifying it - either there's a fetus inside the womb or there isn't, and if there is, it's still there just the same no matter who is using the body.

[chaostiny.livejournal.com]

I am of ancient Irish decent, from Druidic Celts. We have our stories of elven creatures, leprechauns, fairies, dragons and much more. As an adult I have done a lot of reading to find the basis of these legends and tales and have found many of them based in science and truth. Some are not. But, I personally feel that if I want to believe in fairies and dragons and it makes me feel something other than the hell I normally feel, then right on! It makes me happy to find a naturally growing circle of wild flowers and recognize it in my world as a fairy ring:) I have met two others (bodies) that would probably share a genetic ancestry with you...
I really like what you said about the American Indians... that was a really good point!:)

[pengke.livejournal.com]

Well... when you say you "don't believe in elves", what exactly does that mean?

I don't believe they ever existed. They're a myth that probably originated when members of a population encountered people with a different phenotype for the first time. The response has been seen more recently with tribes that thought they were meeting gods or demons when they encountered white people for the first time.

However, in this age of e-mail, it doesn't seem impossible or even improbable that a representative of an organization could receive and reply to a query over a weekend.

If you were talking about a supervisor or a higher up within your own organization, I would agree although I would probably doubt that they'd have much input into your livejournaling habits. Governing bodies are a lot more removed from the individual members of a profession. Even with e-mail, you do not have immediate access to ethics boards or directors. There are specific channels that you have to follow to receive an official position on a subject.

I'm not seeing the distinction between 'being delusional' and 'believing that something which physically can't happen does physically happen'.

Delusional implies a detachment from reality which isn't always the case in believing that something that can't physically happen does. I have read about a situation in which one member of a system got pregnant but another member didn't view the body as her body and insisted that she wasn't pregnant. This system believed that when the other member used the body she wasn't pregnant because they noticed spotting when she used the body and thought it was her getting her period. In that case, the system wasn't delusional for believing that the pregnancy changed depending on who was fronting; just stupid. If they still felt that way when they were eight months pregnant, then they'd be delusional.

[sethrenn.livejournal.com]

If you were talking about a supervisor or a higher up within your own organization, I would agree although I would probably doubt that they'd have much input into your livejournaling habits. Governing bodies are a lot more removed from the individual members of a profession. Even with e-mail, you do not have immediate access to ethics boards or directors. There are specific channels that you have to follow to receive an official position on a subject.

If you're talking about the person I think you are, I doubt that she ever did any of that supposed checking. She's said some things in other communities since then that are even more unbelievable, as well as being full of contradictions, enough to convince me that she's not just deliberately making things up, but doing so with malicious intents.

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

"I don't believe they ever existed. They're a myth that probably originated when members of a population encountered people with a different phenotype for the first time. The response has been seen more recently with tribes that thought they were meeting gods or demons when they encountered white people for the first time"

Ummm... those "people of a different phenotype" were elves, or more precisely (in Denmark) the Alfar. Probably indigenous hunter-gatherers, like the faeries of the British isles; quite possibly with more Neanderthal genes than was common among the other populations. The fact that a bunch of tales were made up about them by later peoples doesn't indicate that they never existed.

With the pregnancy thing - I'm not convinced that my 'brother' Crist-Erui ever realized this body was pregnant, or that the baby came from this same body he lives in. He freaked out big-time the first time he felt her move, and wouldn't take form ('front') until after she was born. So maybe the same with the person you describe? Hard to say.

[kasiawhisper.livejournal.com]

We have had instances in our group where certain group members were pregnant, but the body was not and they have felt strange using the body because it wasn't pregnant and they were.. but they haven't said that they were no longer pregnant when they were in the body just because the body wasn't pregnant..

[shatterstorm.livejournal.com]

love the native american argument :D

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

*wry grin* So does my housemate, who's half Native - his comment was "It would have happened" (i.e. that people would deny there'd ever been any such thing as Indians.)