still no "nays"

[paganmommy.livejournal.com]

I considered that maybe, since I didn't get a "majority" of "yays" that I should pull out, but that isn't giving people enough credit, and is terribly unfair, so I guess I am here. :)

I have a question though. Was anyone here toying with the possibility of DID before actually meeting any of your Alters? Before anyone else got to meet them properly?

Comments

[judiff]

i dint say anything when you wrote before becos i was busy with other stuff. I don't mind you being unsure about whther you are multiple or not. But i'm kind of new here myself (but we've been sleves aware for years).
Before we realised about being multiple (don't like to think it's a disorder) we knew that we were very changeable and felt like we were different ages and stuff at different times. And we tended to do that kind of frozen no-one being home kind of dissosating quite a lot (which i do think is like a disorder). We acutally decided to let ourselves seperate more becos we could function better that way rather than trying to squash more together.
I have no idea if it would be like that for anyone else.
Are you wondering about this becos of stuff you feel yourself or becos someone suggested it? (not that someone suggesting it as a possiblity is a bad thing, sometimes outside people notice stuff more but only you are going to be able to know for sure)

[paganmommy.livejournal.com]

First I want to let you know, I don't see it as a "disorder" either. Fortunately, neither does my therapist. She feels it is VERY natural, just a little more extreme than most and may need some help with dealing with in order to function together (co operatively). In my case, I won't try to ..damn, I lost the word.. mush everyone.. if I have "everyone".

I have a lot of "holes" in my life, that I either don't remember, or I remember differently (to an extreme) than other people who were there. Mostly, now that I am older I have those frozen times you describe, where I am simply not there anymore, but can still sorta function, I just don't feel like I am doing most of the controlling, if that makes sense. I don't feel anyone else with me though, like me and my body are seperate and my body is doing mostly it's own thing.
I didn't even know that the "out of body" thing was dissociative until I went into the hospital cause I had a REALLY REALLY bad thought that scared me, and though I would never normally check in on my own, that thought scared me enough to check in. It was later, as I was starting to come out of the hospital and come home that I realized I was doing a little dissociation, and didn't know how much until I started telling my therapist stuff that was happening, and how it was really scaring me. LIke losing a day, and remembering doing things, but not remembering actually doing them exactly. She only really wanted to figure out how much I was dissociating, I brought up the idea of multiples.. it was the only thing I have any experience with I guess that made any sense to me. She gave me worried face.. and talked about me keeping a paper journal with coloring stuff. She didn't say I was.

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

First I want to let you know, I don't see it as a "disorder" either.

Then why call it DID?

It sounds like the problem you have is closer to what doctors some years ago called derealization and depersonalization -- the "out of body" part, not with being multiple -- having different selves. What you wrote there sounds an awful lot like what we were experiencing in the early 80s.

In our experience a lot of the derealization and depersonalization doesn't exactly go away with improved communications but that, when you have them, they're less distressing, because you can recognize that this is other people and talk to them. You can get to tell who's who. And sometimes it isn't other people -- it's just that you're tired.

[paganmommy.livejournal.com]

Then why call it DID?

Because that is all I know. I have known more than 6 individuals with it and they never slapped me down for using it and used it themselves, even when comfortable with cohabitating with their others. I am sorry if it offended you.

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

Doesn't offend us in the least, and I'm sorry if you experienced my comment as slapping you down. The thing about "dissociative identity disorder" is that it has a specific meaning that may not be to your advantage.

The doctors who came up with DID to replace MPD did so out of a wish to stop their colleagues from taking multiplicity seriously. Phil Coons of the ISSD is on record that people with DID only think they have more than one mind; that nobody really does:

The DID patient is a single person who experiences himself/herself as having separate parts of the mind that function with some autonomy. The patient is not a collection of separate people sharing the same body. The terms personality and alter (short for alternate personality) refer to dissociated parts of the mind that alternately influence behavior in DID patients. Some clinicians prefer terms such as disaggregate self state, part of the mind, or part of the self.
http://www.issd.org/indexpage/isdguide.htm#intro

A lot of this was to put a stop to the recovery-movement-motivated scandals of the 80s and 90s. People getting diagnosed with MPD because they were having normal memory loss for their age -- forgetting where you put the keys, stuff like that. (remembers to take ginkgo) But it also, in the field, caused a number of doctors to get flak and even get fired (judging from the letters we were getting for a while) for treating their multiple patients as multiples rather than as singlets with a delusion.

Using "DID" as shorthand for "multiple" is a person's own choice. But when it's clearly something a particular group experiences not as a disorder but just a way of living, why call it a disorder? It sort of reinforces (language shapes thought) the idea that there is something wrong, rather than just something different.

There's a movement now, led by Dr. Paul "Ignore the alters" McHugh, even to get rid of DID in the diagnostic book, which we think is a mistake. We think it ought to be changed to "ego-dystonic multiple personality disorder" and kept so that people who really feel their multiplicity is a disorder and want integration can get it.

[paganmommy.livejournal.com]

I have to apologize for my defensiveness. I suddenly felt very chastised and hurt, and that is NOT YOUR FAULT. It is important I let you know that.

Thank you so much for all the information you have taken the time to give me. Now I know what is behind the funny looks my therapist gives me when she feels she has to use "DID" as a descriptor. I dare say, she feels much as you do about it, and gave me similar information, but a lot of it is lost to me right now. Having it in print is good, because I can come back to it and remember it better.

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

Ennea. Your apology is accepted. I really just get curious sometimes why people say DID when they either haven't been diagnosed with it, or just as shorthand for "multiple". I think very few people realize what a specific diagnosis DID is, and how it does not at all apply to many multiples.

I believe MPD is and has always been a real condition and people who have it should get proper treatment, whether that means just getting a communication and operating system in place, or full integration if the system agrees that is what they genuinely want.

I believe DID is possibly legitimate as well -- people who think they are multiple when they are not, who have possibly been led to believe they were, and who would feel better if their "parts" were integrated back in. I think doctors have clients who are multiple, or who have MPD, and if they want to make it official, they have to diagnose these clients with DID because that's what's official.

I also think it is possible to be multiple without having either MPD or DID, and that it's a mistake for undiagnosed systems and those who are living in functional cooperation to call themselves with either of those names.

I also tend to wince when I hear "MPD" or "DID" being used as shorthand for "multiple", as in "I am DID", because that's identifying yourself with your diagnosis (if any) besides identifying yourself as being a disorder. Psycholinguistically not a good idea. Probably better, if you have been diagnosed with DID, to say "I have DID".

[paganmommy.livejournal.com]

I understand more now. There has been a lot learned since I last picked up a book on the varieties of this mechanism of protection our minds use.

I had a friend, who believed her multiples were shades of her past life. My therapist believes that it could be. There simply isn't enough known to say that it isn't so. I am very fortunate to have stumbled upon her for help I think.

I am also lucky to have stumbled upon this community. Thank you.

[paganmommy.livejournal.com]

It sounds like the problem you have is closer to what doctors some years ago called derealization and depersonalization -- the "out of body" part, not with being multiple -- having different selves. What you wrote there sounds an awful lot like what we were experiencing in the early 80s.

In our experience a lot of the derealization and depersonalization doesn't exactly go away with improved communications but that, when you have them, they're less distressing, because you can recognize that this is other people and talk to them. You can get to tell who's who. And sometimes it isn't other people -- it's just that you're tired.


I do thank you for this information. Depersonalization was brought up, which is what I think spawned her desire to sort of guage the level of the dissociation I was doing. don't like worried looks.

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

Well, the fact that she asked you to use a paper diary and crayons suggests that she perhaps thinks you are multiple and maybe having a hard time communicating, and that some of them may be young people. Judging from the letters and chats we've had with people in that situation, a paper diary is one of the best things you can do (Or a whiteboard or whatever -- a common area to write on). Heck, we do it. We're starting to do it more because we're getting middle-aged and the brain is tending to lose track and last year we started leaving post-its for each other and making grocery lists. We never did that before, but we've never been in a 46-year-old body before either. Eep! (takes more ginkgo)

Why should she be worried? Can you ask her?

[paganmommy.livejournal.com]

I think she is concerned because I sort of pushed forward on this line of thinking earlier than she intended to. I do that. I tend to be intuitive, and really impatient. She is away for two weeks, and won't be here to talk with me about it. Add that to my tendancy to over think things and, well, I think she is just worried that I am going to drive myself over the bend while she is away. It wasn't all that long ago I was in hospital.
I do have my white paper and coloring things. I can draw with my left hand! :) So, multiple or not, I found a neat thing. :)

About the ginko? Does that really help? Now that my other meds are evening out a bit, I am considering trying to add that to the mix (with pharm approval), but really don't want to bother if it isn't helpful.

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

Ginkgo helps, but you have to take enough of it, and keep taking it. 600mg/day is what I usually take.

Our GP says that the client always knows more than the doctor about their own condition, be it physical or mental.

[perse.livejournal.com]

Toying with the idea... no not really.

I happened to form a couple of close friendships with other people who were DID and... it was very scary for me. I went to examine my own reactions and realized that it was very scary because I had been running my own life that way for years. I knew the names of my alters, I lost time very very frequently, I didn't have concrete memories of traumatic events of my childhood.

It sparked a lot of internal dialog and I'd like to say I'm better adjusted now than I was then, those were a couple of bumpy years and my daughter was very little too. As a single mom just starting out it was a bit much to handle.

I'm much happier now tho and am coping much better.

hugs if you want them
Gira

[paganmommy.livejournal.com]

thank you for the hugs.. I like them. and I am a mother of two, but I can't imagine going through this without some other support. it must of been very scary for you, Very glad you are feeling more stable lately.

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

That is a very pretty icon. How did you create it?

[perse.livejournal.com]

I didn't. :)

My close friend indigopowder made it for me from some artwork of an artist who I like very much, Trevor Brown. She'd originally made it for herself, but decided it was more me. Lucky me. :)

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

I have a question though. Was anyone here toying with the possibility of DID before actually meeting any of your Alters? Before anyone else got to meet them properly?

It was that in reverse. We knew each other from the beginning. The idea that there was actually anyone there was what changed. At an early age we knew ourselves as individuals, then due to society's reaction we tried to shove it away as immaturity, imaginary friends, whatever. Read Sybil and it didn't fit us. Read Truddi Chase and it didn't either, but told us that the idea that they were persons had been the true one and to go with it and speak to one another.

[ramble follows]
What bothered us most about Sybil was that having acknowledged her people, they were beginning to communicate and to do things in the world -- building things, writing and selling songs, doing their art. Then Dr. Wilbur wants to squish them all together?! There are so many books that follow that pattern -- just as they're beginning to have cooperation and interact and do things they love in the world, the doctor says it's time for them all to go back in the bottle. Yeah. Right.

In other words, in spite of the fact that they demonstrated increased functionality when they lived as separate persons, their doctors insisted on integration -- they wanted to see one "whole" person, because they were seeing many "whole" people and Andy said "What are they all afraid of?!". They were seeing something they couldn't accept because it was against their cultural, social and (in some cases) religious conditioning.

I wish Dr. Caul who worked with Billy Milligan was still around. He was the one who said it didn't matter if multiples integrated or not; "It seems to me that after treatment you want a functional unit, be it a corporation, a partnership, or a one-owner business." [end ramble]

[paganmommy.livejournal.com]

YES YES YES with the Sybil thing! I totally see what you are saying with that! Of the multiples i have seen, and this isnt' to say intergration isn't possible, but the people I have been in contact with, it seems like it is unhealthier for some people to go that route. This happened for a reason, why mess with that?

not knowing

[riagoose.livejournal.com]

not knowing and yet knowing fully are my fears and traumas. I slip and I know I'm slipping and I can see someone else taking over...mostly an introverted non-speaking infant child...or a slightly older child who speaks little. I used to think it was just me, but when I couldn't take over by my own will I knew it was someone else ordinarily supressed within who needed to take over.

Sometimes I don't remember anyone else there and I used to lose a lot of time. I don't remember so many things that have happened in my life. I have paintings and writing to show for some of the time and people who call me friend who I don't even recall knowing or meeting.

These events have slowed down now but I have a strange and uncanny knowledge that they are still there and ready to take over at any time... so I have hidden myself within my home alone and I sedate myself with drinks when I am out...just to avoid losing contact or control again.

I don't know fully, but on the same level, sometimes I know they are still there.

Re: not knowing

[paganmommy.livejournal.com]

Do you have anyone to help you?

[ninquelote.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... well, what I gather from this is, you're basically trying to figure out if you're multiple or not? This can be one of the hardest steps to take, because while we've been led to believe there is a very specific set of 'symptoms,' which actually apply to very few multiples we know, every system is different.

For us, looking at it now, the fact that there are many people in here seems somewhat obvious when we look back at it, but wasn't at the time when we thought it had to entail very specific things. Basically, we thought we had undergone extremely drastic psychological changes at several points in our lives which had completely changed our ways of thinking, responding, and perceiving things. Really what had happened was that we'd had a succession of frontrunners, most of whom actually did call themselves by different names-- we talked several times about wanting to get our birth name changed-- but it was mostly seen by the adults around us as just 'phases' that we would grow out of, and, you know, use your real name and stop being silly. *eyeroll* Instead of concluding that these must have really been different people (if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...), though, we dismissed ourselves as 'fakers' because of a lack of externally visible dramatic symptoms. (The other part of our problem was not realizing we could talk to each other.) But that's just our story, and yours may be different.

The one piece of advice I can give you is that if you think you are multiple or median, just -try- thinking of yourself as different people and saying "we" instead of "I," see if any of them want to behave autonomously. We had a friend who wondered if he might be plural after we came out to him, and after trying to think of himself as different people, concluded that it just didn't feel right for him. It felt right for us. It's really kind of a gut instinct thing. No one can make that decision but you, whether you have a diagnosis or not.

I don't know how much this helps, but that's our advice from experience.

[paganmommy.livejournal.com]

Thank you very much, it is what I did yesterday. If anyone is interested in the results, I will be happy to post what I (we?) remember later. It was.. interesting.

[whatitslike.livejournal.com]

I have a question though. Was anyone here toying with the possibility of DID before actually meeting any of your Alters? Before anyone else got to meet them properly?

Yes, yes, yes. I toyed with the thought, considered it, angsted over it, convinced myself I was full of crap, and repeated the entire process for something like a year before I start to meet anyone, and all in all it took about four years total before I went from the toying/considering/angsting stage to actually _meeting_ the other people in here with such clarity that I knew I wasn't simply over-imaginative.

Part of what was going on is that they didn't want me to know I was multiple; they had a lot invested in protecting me and they thought keeping me unaware of my multiplicity was part of that. It took a lot of sheer persistence to convince them that I wasn't going to give up trying to figure out what was going on.