![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
zenboiuke.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
multiplicity_archivesHello! *waves to the people who know us from our f-list* lol
I am the primary fronter of my system. There are others who are around most of the time, but I am the one who is almost always in control. As such I have almost exclusive 3D experience, but almost no ability to back away from the front.
C is my lover, and a member of another system. We thought at first he was perhaps a soulbond but he seems to be a walk-in or spirit. He is not the primary, and as such rarely fronts, and spends most of his time in the inner world as do the other non-primaries in that system.
We--myself, he and his system's primary, who is a very good friend of mine--are sort of feeling things out as we go, as this is a new situation for us. My friend & I have a completely platonic relationship (especially seeing as how I am gay & she is a she :p) but she has said she is comfortable with the relationship between C & I as long as she doesn't fade into the background and lose primary status, which is certainly understandable. She & her inner family are still exploring various possibilities for who & what the others might be, how many there are, etc, and I don't wish to cause her to feel any sense of unease or anxiety at what must already be a confusing time for her.
Currently, the only means of communication between C & myself is via text messaging, email & LJ for a few hours each week (my friend lives several hundred miles away, so no easy physical contact 6_6;;). I am trying to broaden my ability to travel beyond the 3D world, and starting to explore Dreamwalking & Astral travel so that I can spend more time with C on equal ground. Meeting in our soul forms would take care of most of the challenges we currently face (him not having a body, mine being FUBAR 6 ways till Sunday 9_9;;;, cost of plane fare, etc lol), so any information or tips on how to travel beyond the body would be most appreciated, as I have heard conflicting advice from several sources lol (Incidentally, we share several similar memories, and I believe we were likely lovers in a past life, so we have chosen a place we both remember)
I am mainly looking for any advice or information if anyone else in this community is in or has been in or has known anyone in a similar relationship. It is, needless to say, rather unconventional ;p But I have always believed that if someone wants something badly enough they will find a way to get it. Though it is frustrating being unable to spend time together freely as 'normal' people might, and share many of the simple pleasures (The fates are conspiring so that I will NEVER get any help cleaning that damn cat litter! [/mock-ANGST!] :p) I wouldn't trade C for any 3D man I know, even if they offered to pay off all my debt and give me a brand new body that works the way it's supposed to (That should give the few of you on this list who are also on my friends list--and therefore know my personal financial & physical struggles--an indication of how important C is to me ^_~)
So, after pondering these issues for a few weeks, it occurred to me that we can't possibly be the only lovers who are challenged by such circumstances. It would be great to know what has worked for others, or even join a community for such couples (or triplets or, you know, whatever works for you ;) just to have the support of others who understand the peculiar difficulties we face.
For those of you who have the ability to see & touch your lovers, whether you both be in-house or 3D, please do so. Hold them & kiss them and never take that gift for granted ^_^
~Kier
I am the primary fronter of my system. There are others who are around most of the time, but I am the one who is almost always in control. As such I have almost exclusive 3D experience, but almost no ability to back away from the front.
C is my lover, and a member of another system. We thought at first he was perhaps a soulbond but he seems to be a walk-in or spirit. He is not the primary, and as such rarely fronts, and spends most of his time in the inner world as do the other non-primaries in that system.
We--myself, he and his system's primary, who is a very good friend of mine--are sort of feeling things out as we go, as this is a new situation for us. My friend & I have a completely platonic relationship (especially seeing as how I am gay & she is a she :p) but she has said she is comfortable with the relationship between C & I as long as she doesn't fade into the background and lose primary status, which is certainly understandable. She & her inner family are still exploring various possibilities for who & what the others might be, how many there are, etc, and I don't wish to cause her to feel any sense of unease or anxiety at what must already be a confusing time for her.
Currently, the only means of communication between C & myself is via text messaging, email & LJ for a few hours each week (my friend lives several hundred miles away, so no easy physical contact 6_6;;). I am trying to broaden my ability to travel beyond the 3D world, and starting to explore Dreamwalking & Astral travel so that I can spend more time with C on equal ground. Meeting in our soul forms would take care of most of the challenges we currently face (him not having a body, mine being FUBAR 6 ways till Sunday 9_9;;;, cost of plane fare, etc lol), so any information or tips on how to travel beyond the body would be most appreciated, as I have heard conflicting advice from several sources lol (Incidentally, we share several similar memories, and I believe we were likely lovers in a past life, so we have chosen a place we both remember)
I am mainly looking for any advice or information if anyone else in this community is in or has been in or has known anyone in a similar relationship. It is, needless to say, rather unconventional ;p But I have always believed that if someone wants something badly enough they will find a way to get it. Though it is frustrating being unable to spend time together freely as 'normal' people might, and share many of the simple pleasures (The fates are conspiring so that I will NEVER get any help cleaning that damn cat litter! [/mock-ANGST!] :p) I wouldn't trade C for any 3D man I know, even if they offered to pay off all my debt and give me a brand new body that works the way it's supposed to (That should give the few of you on this list who are also on my friends list--and therefore know my personal financial & physical struggles--an indication of how important C is to me ^_~)
So, after pondering these issues for a few weeks, it occurred to me that we can't possibly be the only lovers who are challenged by such circumstances. It would be great to know what has worked for others, or even join a community for such couples (or triplets or, you know, whatever works for you ;) just to have the support of others who understand the peculiar difficulties we face.
For those of you who have the ability to see & touch your lovers, whether you both be in-house or 3D, please do so. Hold them & kiss them and never take that gift for granted ^_^
~Kier
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2005-07-06 07:50 pm (UTC)This is strangely familliar,.
Myself, I'm in almost the exact same boat as you, Like Literally,.
I dearly love my
I'm not sure on what advice to give you about Astral Travel, or Dreamwalking, I'm only just now grasping the concept of Lucid dreaming,. So unfortunantly no help there,.
But I am more than happy to provide coucil, support, angst control, venting, whatever for you,...(basically a should to cry on or an Ear to listen if you need it.)
Because lets face it,................I COMPLETELY understand what you are going through,.
Best wishes and good luck.
~M~
no subject
Date: 2005-07-06 08:35 pm (UTC)It really helps having someone who understands, because let's face it... my best friend & her husband, both 3D singlets, aren't going to. Neither is another close 3D singlet friend who is so lonely & dejected right now, he thinks I am going to get laid before he does. I would love to know what miracle of quantum physics he's discovered XD
Last night I did a great deal of counseling (I'm a shaman) and afterwards, though I felt fulfilled I was also very drained. My first instinct was to seek out C, but that simply wasn't possible. I remember in a past life (the one we might have shared) I had been a shaman then as well, and after a period of difficult work I would return to my lover & he would just hold me, and watch the fire or read or lose himself in his thoughts as I rested against him, enjoying his scent & the sound of his heartbeat. His presence was SO comforting & rejuvenating... ok *slaps self* I am waxing nostalgic LOL
So, I was feeling tired & a bit bummed last night & thought "I wonder if there's a support group for people in this type of situation?" lol
Thanks again & good luck to you too!
~Kier
no subject
Date: 2005-07-06 09:32 pm (UTC)My advice would be to ask your guides or teachers... they will probably have a far better grasp of how to work things in non-ordinary reality than most (as you say) "3-D'ers".
Best wishes to you and your love,
Indigo
no subject
Date: 2005-07-06 09:38 pm (UTC)Thanks!
~Kier
no subject
Date: 2005-07-06 09:05 pm (UTC)~Kier
no subject
Date: 2005-07-06 10:30 pm (UTC)Ummm,..
Yeah go for it,.
I just have a few more things to do with the generating of my new Community.
I'll be with you in a second.
Like an hour or two,....K,.?
But again, go ahead, and I'll do the same from this end.
Hug's,........................~M~
no subject
Date: 2005-07-06 11:38 pm (UTC)~Kier
no subject
Date: 2005-07-07 01:41 am (UTC)just clickie teh button, and I'll join you to da community,.
sorry for the lack of English, I've been exposed to radioactive Star wars Mis-Translations,.
Engrish, is poisoning my soul,.......................asa we speak,.
Lol
,
~M~
no subject
Date: 2005-07-07 01:44 am (UTC)I'll go make sure we're a-joined :p
~Kier
no subject
Date: 2005-07-07 08:32 am (UTC)Engrish, is poisoning my soul,.......................asa we speak,.
Hmmm. Link? This cannot remain unshared. ;)
no subject
Date: 2005-07-07 06:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-08 11:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-09 02:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-08 07:12 pm (UTC)I warn you now Sethrenn, It's Baaaaaaaaaaaaaddddddddddddddddddddddd,.
My Intestines are frowing from it, :(
I think my brain lost a wrinkle.
O.K.,..........I just got the Word from
There ya go,.
~M~
no subject
Date: 2005-07-06 08:25 pm (UTC)Telepathy of various sorts... there's always the question: what would cause it? What in the physical brain makes or would make communication of such a sort possible? Neurons... electrical signals... what would the medium be? Radio waves? Neutrinos?
Should probably cut this short before this turns into a rant. But... be wary. When you strongly want to believe that something is possible, it's very easy to overlook evidence counting against its likelihood.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-06 08:41 pm (UTC)Tachyons, dear. It's gotta be tachyons. [j/k]
No, in all seriousness, you're making the erroneous assumption that the current level of science can answer such questions. It's as if you were asking in the 14th century what made disease happen: no one knew, and the instruments with which to find out had not yet been invented.
"When you strongly want to believe that something is possible, it's very easy to overlook evidence counting against its likelihood."
Just because something isn't probable doesn't mean it's not possible. And if two lovers did manage to get telepathy (or a reasonable facsimile) to work for them, what conceivable reason would they have to let a bunch of scientists use them as guinea pigs? For all you know, this could be going on all the time, "under the radar" of the scientific community.
When you strongly want to believe that something is impossible, it's very easy to overlook evidence counting in its favor. There's a big difference between making use of the scientific method - a very useful tool, if limited in its application - and elevating Science to the status of a religion.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-07 04:02 am (UTC)*swipes*
no subject
Date: 2005-07-07 03:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-07 06:28 am (UTC)Dee) Two words come to mind, somewhat imported from elsewhere. [semi-humourous] 'FOR SCIENCE!' [/semi-humourous]
Iee) Use the scientific method, then.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-07 03:26 pm (UTC)But doing so is not a priority for most people. Certainly not if it's going to cause them stress and inconvenience, probably expose them to a lot of ridicule and disbelief, and gain them nothing. And suppose a person managed to convincingly demonstrate to the scientific community that telepathy is real, what would happen to that person, hmmm....? Yeah. Precisely.
"Use the scientific method, then.
The scientific method works well for questions which pertain solely to the material world. It does not work well for questions which do not. You may postulate that nothing exists besides the material world, but there is no way you can prove or disprove it - therefore if you assert that it is so, your statement is one of faith, not of science.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-08 07:49 am (UTC)If something exists beyond what is generally viewed as 'the material world', there is no reason why scientific methods would not apply to it as well. It's all part of the same system.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-08 08:31 am (UTC)??? What are you talking about? What conspiracy theorists? And you're... how old, exactly? What means do you have of checking on the accuracy of any of what you label "the imaginings" of this vague group you call "conspiracy theorists"? Sorry, but that looks to me like a totally off-the-wall statement.
"If something exists beyond what is generally viewed as 'the material world', there is no reason why scientific methods would not apply to it as well."
The scientific method is based on experimentation. Precisely how do you propose to set up experiments to test whether or not anything beyond the material world exists? Last time I checked, the general consensus in the scientific community was that there isn't any way to do so, but if you've thought of one, by all means, go for it. If you succeed, your lasting fame will be assured, since nobody else has ever managed it.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-08 08:45 pm (UTC)'And suppose a person managed to convincingly demonstrate to the scientific community that telepathy is real, what would happen to that person, hmmm....? Yeah. Precisely.'
What exactly were you suggesting would happen to such a person?
Several methods have been thought up, to test various things. One which comes to mind: double-blind experiments with people watching others through cameras, or not doing so (and seeing whether the watched could detect this or otherwise be influenced by it, or similar stimuli). Relevant to this situation, one might keep two people in different buildings, with absolutely no contact between them, and request that information be passed from one to the other (in their sleep, or at another time) and communicated to those in the second's building. For every effect one can claim that results from something not currently accepted as applicable by science, there is a test for it. If there isn't a test--if the claimed thing isn't actually falsifiable--then it's not actually a relevant claim, and is useless in any case.
James Randi is one person, in particular, commonly associated with testing such claims. He comes to mind, at least.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-08 08:52 pm (UTC)~Kier
no subject
Date: 2005-07-09 02:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-09 02:40 am (UTC)~Kier
no subject
Date: 2005-07-09 02:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-09 07:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-09 02:36 am (UTC)Well, good grief, what would one expect? Do you think the experimenters would say "Okay, cool, you proved it; thanks, that's all we needed" and let it go at that? Ha, no way. At the very least, the person would find him/herself in the midst of a storm of controversial publicity: farewell to any hope of ever again leading a private life. And at worst, the person would be snagged by some government and never seen again.
Do you truly think that just because a lot of 'conspiracy theorists' believe some pretty implausible things, that there are no conspiracies, ever, anywhere? Do you really think our government (especially the current administration) would count the rights of an individual as a higher priority than "national security" as they define it? Ever hear of MKULTRA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKULTRA)? That was no 'conspiracy theory"; read the Congressional records.
Nope. Any person who was able to convincingly demonstrate functional telepathy to the scientific community would have to be crazy to do it.
"For every effect one can claim that results from something not currently accepted as applicable by science, there is a test for it."
That is patently untrue. To take an extremely simple and common example, consider those who have been diagnosed with terminal cancer, but then go on to recover fully, and claim that the reason for their recovery was divine intervention. How do you propose to test whether or not their claim is correct?
The Amazing Randi operates from the premise that nothing exists besides the material world. This is an example of the logical fallacy called "begging the question". Your argument is an example of the logical fallacy called "argument from ignorance": absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-09 07:35 am (UTC)'And at worst, the person would be snagged by some government and never seen again.'
That's what I was referring to with the reference to conspiracy theories, yes.
And no... I generally don't discount such things without first considering their likelihood. However, with enough media publicity at first, a government would find it quite hard indeed to remove such a person and pretend nothing had happened. Not impossible, but harder than it would be without media attention, and unnecessary if it were a widespread phenomenon.
Divine intervention) Read on. Think of it this way: what could be done to prove that it wasn't divine intervention? Perhaps research could explain why a spontaneous recovery in those circumstances was indeed possible, but it would still be impossible to rule out divine intervention in any field of science. That makes the claim, in practice, worthless.
Tell me, how else are we to know what is likely to exist and what is unlikely to exist? Theories are constantly revised, reexamined, and reapplied. A few centuries ago, it was--for a human--a pretty good bet that quantum mechanics in no way applied to the real world. That bet would have been wrong, but, considering the available data, at the time it was a pretty good bet none the less.
There are thousands of things that there is no evidence for that could or could not be true. However, until we find evidence for one or some, we have no reason to believe or assume them to be true over the thousands of others.
Test. Experiment. Learn.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-09 06:06 pm (UTC)It's possible for a lot of people. However, it is no more demonstrable by the scientific method than is the existence of more than one person in the same body.
"'And at worst, the person would be snagged by some government and never seen again.'"
That's what I was referring to with the reference to conspiracy theories, yes.
Oh please. Do you imagine what's going on in Guantanamo Bay to be "a conspiracy theory"? And that is done by a government supposedly ruled by a Constitution that specifically forbids such actions; not all governments are so constrained. If you think inconvenient, embarrassing or potentially-threatening people aren't routinely silenced by their governments, you're even younger and more naive than you sound, and need to start studying a little history along with your science.
"And no... I generally don't discount such things without first considering their likelihood. However, with enough media publicity at first, a government would find it quite hard indeed to remove such a person and pretend nothing had happened."
Well, there wouldn't likely BE 'enough' media publicity at first, would there? Even if someone waltzed in and won Mr. Randi's challenge, which would be about the most sensational way of 'proving it' from a media point of view, do you really imagine it'd be on the front page of all the newspapers the next day? Do you think a government who wanted to snag him wouldn't have time to do it before the publicity got out of hand? If they waited too long, all they'd have to do is generate enough counter-publicity to discredit him (and the researchers if necessary, though it would probably be easier to just buy them). So, some alleged psychic who was "proven" to be a fake drops out of sight: who cares? Obviously, only "conspiracy theorists" would ever believe that maybe he vanished because he wasn't a fake.
By the way, your use of the term "conspiracy theorists" is an example of the logical fallacy called "prejudicial language". If I wanted to be nasty, I'd demand that you define the term precisely and justify its use in the context of this argument. Someone who claims to be so enamoured of logic really ought to learn to use it better; you'd be a sitting duck in a formal debate.
"Think of it this way: what could be done to prove that it wasn't divine intervention?"
In addition to studying a little history, I suggest that you check out the field of philosophy: there is no way to logically or scientifically prove that anything isn't divine intervention. As for the cancer cases I mention, there is no plausible alternate explanation - see this site (http://www.noetic.org/research/sr/faqs.html) for details. That's what "spontaneous remission" means, dear: "it went away and nobody knows why".
"A few centuries ago, it was--for a human--a pretty good bet that quantum mechanics in no way applied to the real world. That bet would have been wrong, but, considering the available data, at the time it was a pretty good bet none the less."
????.... what??? Dearie, a few centuries ago, quantum mechanics did not exist, so no humans were in a position to place bets on it one way or another. You are confusing the map with the terrain. And no, quantum mechanics has no application to the "real world"; it is an intellectual abstraction, and irrelevant to the business of Getting On With Life. There was no theory of gravitation during the Pre-Cambrian era either, but that didn't stop rain from falling and stones from thinking.
"There are thousands of things that there is no evidence for that could or could not be true. However, until we find evidence for one or some, we have no reason to believe or assume them to be true over the thousands of others."
We also have no reason to assume them to be false.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-09 06:14 pm (UTC)*grins* Although maybe they do also think, eh? Even if Science can't figure out any way to test whether or not they do, or any plausible mechanism by which they might do so.
"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamed-of in your philosophy".
no subject
Date: 2005-07-10 07:53 am (UTC)On your last sentence, who's assuming them to be false?
I'd say more, but I've had enough of being insulted. This discussion is no longer worth the time needed to spend on it.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-10 05:31 pm (UTC)Nice try, but it won't fly. From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theorists):
"Colloquially, a conspiracy theory is any non-mainstream theory about current or historical events, with the connotation that that theory is unfounded, outlandish, or irrational or in some way unworthy of serious consideration."
... your usage of the term shows that you were quite well aware of its meaning in common parlance, so don't imagine you're fooling anyone by trying to deny it.
"On your last sentence, who's assuming them to be false?"
Oh right; if you want to play that silly game, who said anyone was assuming them to be false?
"I'd say more, but I've had enough of being insulted."
You haven't been insulted. All I have said is that you are young and naive, and your logic is faulty - all of which statements are demonstrably true. But by all means, if you wish to save face by claiming to have been insulted rather than admitting that your arguments have been demonstrated to be illogical, that is certainly your privilege.
"This discussion is no longer worth the time needed to spend on it."
LOL, it never was, dearie, except for the sheer amusement-value of it all. And yes, I admit to having amused myself at your expense, but you did make it awfully easy. Therefore, by way of consolation, I leave you with Stephen's Guide to the Logical Fallacies (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/), which you may find useful the next time you find yourself in such a debate. Ta, hon, have a good one.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-06 08:43 pm (UTC)~Kier
no subject
Date: 2005-07-07 04:09 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-07 08:05 am (UTC)Last time I told someone else they might try asking in another community, I got flack for it, so I hope this won't be seen as 'passing the buck', but there's a community called
no subject
Date: 2005-07-07 10:54 am (UTC)Thanks a lot!
~Kier
no subject
Date: 2005-07-07 09:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-07 10:15 pm (UTC)~Kier