A thought....

[amonite.livejournal.com]

Searching for Bible passages looking for anything on multiplicity seems a dauntless task, but the following thought occured to me:

God himself is a multiple. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit...(plus he has tons of names :P)

And the Bible says we are made in the image of God - which I see as spirit wise, not physically since God does not really have a corpereal body (excepting Jesus walkign on earth)

Since three of our system are christian and the fourth believes in God, just chooses not to follow him, it has been something we have been thinking and praying about a lot.

But if we are made in the image of God, and God is a multiple (ok an all powerful co concious omnipresent multiple, but still :P)....then I suppose the most information I can find will be studying God and how he relates to himself, rather than pickign the Bible to see if I can find any hints or examples.

Perhaps everyone has the potential for multiplicity in some way -

If God is three spirits in one, then would not something made in that image be able to have more than one spirit while yet being whole?


Corda & Jenai

Comments

[sharpsight.livejournal.com]

Firstly, keep in mind that the Bible isn't necessarily an infallible guide to life, the universe and everything.

Also, I vaguely recall reading something about a part in the book of Mark. 'My name is Legion, for we are many'? Interpreted as someone with demons inside him, or something along those lines.

[amonite.livejournal.com]

Legion was a demon. Demons.

Although I found out some interesting things about that story lately. I always wondered why Jesus would let the demons go into the pigs - then Brenda reminded us that pigs were unclean animals. Why were there thousands of pigs in Jerusalem of all cities at that time? They were likely being used in idol sacrifices. The story makes more sense to me now.

I am glad pigs are not unclean anymore though, I like pork. But then, I like food in general.


I have been interested in some other verses though. A lot say not to be 'two minds' about anything, but I think that is very different than multiplicity. Each mind having his/her/its own opinion is different then what the majority of society does - war within oneself.

Multiples have an atvantage over singlets in that way - we can see from multiple perspectives and get moe than one impression from the same thing. It is not so much 'mixed feelings' as many seperate feelings enhancing eachother.

[sharpsight.livejournal.com]

Ay) Or so it was claimed. It could have been claimed incorrectly.

See) If they were ever unclean, they are unclean still--if they aren't now unclean, they weren't there.

One theory on why pork wasn't 'kosher' refers to certain illnesses that one could get from eating pork, now not problems due to knowledge of how to properly cook meat... I confess, I know less about this than was once known. It might not have been cooking, but something else. In any case, I doubt that pigs were ever inherently 'spiritually' unclean, but only avoided because those who ate pig meat at the time (or a time when the rule was first formulated) tended to die.

[newmoon17.livejournal.com]

I think God had a lot of health issues in mind when he laid out the law in Moses' time.

They were 'unclean' in the sense of the law. It was basically to prove that man could never achieve perfection by their own works. The whole old testament is about men trying to achieve heaven by following strict laws. In the new testament Jesus came and preached that we were under grace, sdo the old testament law was abolished. God said not to call anything unclean that He had made.

So, in one sense the pigs were not really 'unclean'. But God's law had defined them as such in the old testament, and I think health likely played a large role in that. Same with burning moldy socks, etc - a lot of the law seemed to be made to keep the people in general healthy. (Like Daniel, who stayed healthy by eating vegatables rather than the king's meat)

And I think Jesus was angry with the pigs for what they stood for more than the pigs themselves. The pigs were what the law said was unclean, and yet being raised near the temple and in Jerusalem and used in idol sacrifices.

But I agree, I doubt pigs were ever spiritually unclean ^.^ They became unclean because eating them was breaking the old testament law of God.

And on the ark more of the 'clean' animals, seven pairs of each I think, were taken aboard, than the unclean animals....probably for eating. I doubt it would have been wise to cook pork then.

~Jenai

[sharpsight.livejournal.com]

...two for the world when it was dry, one to boil or bake or fry...

*smiles slightly*

[karma-silenced.livejournal.com]

In my religion and some pantheist religions, the entire world is like one multiple system. I won't go into it unless you are interested. :P (Don't want to be boring.)

Also, Gnostic Christianity can be interpreted in that way.

- Kat

[tearsnfears.livejournal.com]

This is an interesting theory. I wouldn't mind hearing it. Not sure about others though, but I wouldn't mind hearing it. I know I was and still am interested in Gnostic Christianity. If you don't mind I'd like to add you to this journal friend's list and hear more of your theories in your journal possibly??!! Let me know if it's okay to add ya?

[karma-silenced.livejournal.com]

Sure, that'd be fine. :)

[tearsnfears.livejournal.com]

(:+D) thanks. i'm adding you right now.

[shandra.livejournal.com]

You'd think, but some churches have gone out of their way to say there can only be one soul to a body (the Catholic catechism is clear about this, for example).

Still it is kind of nice. :)

[amonite.livejournal.com]

I always assumed there was one soul to the body. I still think there might be 'one soul' in a sense, but I do not think the 'soul' is bound by the same rules as a physical body.

Catholocism has added a lot of ritual as well as assumptions to the Bible - it is hard to piece what is really int he Word from what we just take fore granted sometimes.

A physical body cannot really be split into two or three and survive. Although, strangely enough two bodies can share. (Chimeras intrigue me, I am contemplating writing a book about one. Two eggs merged together in the womb rather than split liek with twins....a person with two sets of DNA. Two souls, or one soul? Or a soul that is two in one?)

The spirit however - God's soul encompasses everything. He is three in one. Not split in three, he is three. Three spirits, yet one soul.

Maybe spirit and soul are different? I should look up verses on the spirit.

Or more likely, the accepted view of the soul is incorrect.

If JEnai could take Jesus into her heart, and then I could, if we BOTH experienced the baptism of the holy spirit and accepted Christ - then we both must have a soul.

Is it the same soul? I do not think it is in the sense that we understand one unit. Jecklen believes in God but does not serve him. He has a soul too. Is it the same as ours?

The more I pray about it the more I think that our body has only one soul, but many spirits. The soul can be more than one, yet one at the same time?

I do not know. Certainly I think most in my church would have a hard time with the concept of multiplicity (especially if more than one multiple is a christian - there goes the all multiples are evil demons theory!!! And the integration as best solution theory)

It is something I think about a lot though.

But I want a bumper sticker....

GOD IS A MULTIPLE

:)


Hmmmm....I should write a MUC code for God ;)

[shandra.livejournal.com]

Yeah - it's a really interesting discussion, thanks for bringing it up.

Our experience with particular churches - first a Jesuit priest and then an Anglican priest, after years of attending a Catholic church - was that there wasn't a lot of openness to accepting us as separate. That was where my comment came from: we just hit a brick wall against the Catholic Church in particular.

We had some people in our system who wanted to be baptised, and did the RCIA in the Catholic Church and worked with individual priests. But others of us felt very strongly about not participating in a baptism (For some it was specifically the section that read: renounce Satan and all his deeds; for others it was about sexual politics).

When we discussed our multiplicity both priests made it clear that baptism would have to be an all or nothing deal - either we were globally baptised, or we weren't being baptised.

And something about that sat wrong with us. It was pretty discouraging.

I don't think it affected anyone's relationship to God, but we couldn't see the point of professing to a particular religion if we couldn't have a meaningful discussion of what that faith really was for us. It wasn't enough for us just to have Teresa front that day and pretend she was accepting things for everyone, not because of God - who would presumably know the difference - but because of the religious community. So we decided not to enter into a relationship with a church, at that point.

(Yes, we can be that picky & stubborn. :))

My own personal belief is that God, who/whatever that is, is multiple far beyond the "Father, Son, Holy Ghost (feminine)" thing but in fact is also Abraham and Mohammed's god, and Kali and Shiva and Zeus and Hera and Freya and Loki and Mithras and Earth-Mother and nature and time and space and grains of sand on the beach.

I also believe that holy people - Buddha, Jesus, various saints - are recognizable by everyone as "holy" despite specific religious differences because they carry something of that universality with them.

So - yeah. I agree with your bumper sticker, but in a broader sense, too. And I think multiplicity is equally an expression of the divine in humans as singletype is.

And that's one of my big reasons that I don't think multiplicity is pathological and something to be cured or contained by psychology or psychiatry.

So - yeah. That's my take on it, not any kind of final word. It is kind of neat to take a multiple perspective on how some of that many-ness actually might work.

[zenboiuke.livejournal.com]

Beautifuly spoken! What a refreshing, healthy, celebratory view ^____^

Yes, unfortunately, a lot of organized religions get so bogged down with details & rules that they lose sight of the divinity. Practitioners become more concerned with who should be condemned or what should or should not be worn/eaten, that they forget about Love, Compassion, and the Interconnectedness of all things.... they lose themselves in the religion & forget about the faith.

~Kier

[amonite.livejournal.com]

While I do believe the Bible literally, I do agree with you there. The definition of religion tends to be an organized structure - and while it makes it easier to find people who believe similar, it can get in the way.

The catholic church and many denominational churches fall into that trap. With catholicism, salvation is based off works, not grace.

And a lot of denominations forget that the Old Testament law was abolished when the new testament came along. Like our grandparents church, they think playing instrumental worship music is a sin.

And so many churches believe that women cannot teach adult men. (based off mistranslated and purposely misunderstood verses and centuries of tradition)

We actually do not celebrate Christmas. Well, not as a religious holiday anyway. As a secular holiday I think it is rather cute. As the whole Jesus birth thing with all the lies and traditions and rituals however, I cannot stand it.

Losing oneself in religion and forgettign faith is an excellent way to put it - sadly it is so widespread.

[vacheestfachee.livejournal.com]

And so many churches believe that women cannot teach adult men. (based off mistranslated and purposely misunderstood verses and centuries of tradition)

Amen to that, sister. ;)

[own personal issue I get pissy about]

[vacheestfachee.livejournal.com]

Oh, and you might appreciate this article I posted to my journal recently (if you're in the mood to make fun of the works-only people): Never Buy a Lawnmower from Sears (http://www.ginkworld.net/yourvoice/straighttalk/archive_2005_art/never%20buy%20a%20lawbmower%20from%20sears.htm).

[vacheestfachee.livejournal.com]

This is interesting to think about... I know that, in the particular type of Christian healing experiences I undergo, different parts/pieces/people have had different experiences of God. I-on-top could usually see/feel these experiences, but they weren't about me.

I don't know if we all have separate spirits or not (or separate bits of spirit), but I do know that we all have very different experiences in that respect. But, in terms of Christian ideology, I have to believe that some of us making certain decisions has to count for the whole (can 3 pieces of us go to hell and the rest to heaven? the person I talk to doesn't think so, and it doesn't make sense to me for that to happen). So I really don't know. It's beyond what I can understand.

I've also experienced those people who assume that others are demons... they hurt a lot of us and caused us to run away from church people in a lot of ways... and maybe positive experiences with multiples would change their minds, or (more likely) their minds aren't open to being changed. I put a lot of effort into finding Christian places that are safe -- not just folks that are saying the things I/we believe, but those that are actually *safe* for us (even though we're generally not going to come out as multiple, it's still a huge issue). We have a lot of pain that's come from church people. You all sound like you don't, so that's good.

Also, what is this MUC code thing?

[amonite.livejournal.com]

Like "N-- f;f/m/f S.h A(b- r---/) Os/w/? Cc++ I-- OF+ Fxb/F# T Xs!^ (b^) J/pa/a/s/r/u/x~ Do R+ C+++ So+"

It is a shorthand for multiple codes (search for MUC on google and I think it is pretty easy to find)

Kind of tuime consuming though.

N-- would signify that we have more than two but less than ten personalities (I think)

f;f/m/f means the body is female, and there are two other females and one male

Etc, etc.

I suppose God's MUC would have a lot of "undefined" in it though :P


I have had no really bad church experiences - but then I have never come out as a multiple in the church. From conversations with my parents I think my mom believes that all multiple personalities are DID and trauma induced or demonically induced.

A couple of my christian friends know - but I think they see it more as some psychotic disorder or some such.

And not many of the people who know like me - mostly because I was a conciousless b**** when I first came around. We have a theory on that though. I think I started off as a fragment (like how some psychologists insist we are all fragments of a personalitiy, not whole) - but I moved on to join with the body's concience (soul, spirit?) and then developed on my own from there. The more one experiences the more one grows. We applied this theory to Jecklen, as he seemed a fragment and was giving us a lot of pain mentally - we told him to either become a full personality or go. I am not sure if that was the right choice, but he was hurting us and the body. We guessed right and his survival as more important to him, and he became a full identity. We did nto expect him to be so sullen though ;)


If those in the church actually followed what they believed all the time - unconditional love - it would be easier finding theories and answers I think.

[sethrenn.livejournal.com]

Multiple Code: http://www.astraeasweb.net/plural/code/welcome2.html

Re: R

[amonite.livejournal.com]

Because to us the path is absolute, and they are not all paths to the same overview.

Some common ones- Catholicism, islam, jehovah's witness, mormonism, judaism (which I cannot spell apparently) - all have similar bases but all believe that rules and regulations and works get you into heaven.

Wheras I believe that ALL that is required for salvation is to believe in Jesus and that he died to cover the debt of our sins, so salvation is no longer achieved through what we do, but by being under the lord's grace. (In many ways I do not even see this as a religion, but just my faith. I do not align with any church denomination since all add something, sometimes small, sometimes big, to scripture.)

I also believe in God because of his nature - I do not see all gods as one or as even similar - the values of God mean a great deal to me.

Some of the stuff my current church believes is not even in scripture, but based on the pastors seminary teachings and popular belief - if what they thought was true about God, I would not follow him.

I might still believe in Him, but I would not follow God if he was not a God of love and justice and grace and everything he claims to be.

Though I still argue with him ^.^ Currently we are upset over the whole concept of heaven and hell and why he would make it that way.

Re: R

[forsaken-smile.livejournal.com]

sounds sort of like the bahai faith...it believes that there's only one god and all the religions build on eachother. an interesting view.

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

The name for God in early Hebrew scriptures is Elohim -- a feminine noun with a masculine plural tacked on the end of it.

"Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness..." Gen. 1:26

God as a female multiple -- references to Elohim and "we" -- run throughout Genesis.

In other Near Eastern religions, the gods are portrayed as having different aspects. Ishtar could be a fiery warrior woman or kind of like Mother Mary.

In ancient Greece, a lot of people had daimons. They believed the unseen world was full of these spirits, who would give helpful (or sometimes harmful) advice. It was said everyone had a daimon or two around if they'd bother to listen to her or him. The only time daimons are seen today is in cartoon portrayals where tiny angel and devil versions of a character appear and whisper in the character's ears what he should do.

[amonite.livejournal.com]

Ironically there, Ishtar was a goddess with fertility as one of her aspects and quite promiscuous, wheras Mary was a virgin until Jesus was born. Ishtar did have a lot of different aspects though.

Althoguh I am not sure why the catholic church insists on her perpetual virginity, considering all the siblings Jesus had ^.^

I believe in angels and demons, but tht there is only one God. And that he is not evil. With the masy gods or all gods as one theory, evil aspects are incorporated into God's nature as well as the good.

Though Gods nature puzzles me. I do not see him as evil - but some of his 'just' actions are simply that, 'just'. He created us, and he created the angels - yet he would punish us for being flawed? It is true that under grace anyone can be saved - but what about the people who are not? I do not believe in the whole eternal firey hell death thing. I do believe that people not saved will die and be seperated from God, but NOT in the eternal torture thing.

I feel sorry for the angels though. Some of them will be burning eternally - it has to be hard to be an angel.

All throughout history people have searched for meaning - I do not find it surprising that they believe in spirits and gods - having some sort of spirituality makes more sense to me than believing the chance theory.

I will look into the names of God again. The 'we' I have heard about but it is something almost glossed over. The trinity is an almost purposely misunderstood concept in the church. The trinity is often seen as a clover - to me, all three are wholy God. Not three pieces on the same stem - but three spirits of the same soul?

I am still very confused, but realizing that God himself is multiple - that gives me hope and is helping me understand how we can all exist together better.

[kuwaizair.livejournal.com]

i think i have it, its not there yet, i feel its on the tip of my toung. i think.

also ive seen 'god is a little autisitc, thats why the planets spin" said on a page once. *shakes head* there goes gravatational pull....

[sharpsight.livejournal.com]

Hmm. One wonders whether there's any connection with Phillip Pullman's daemons; if so, was he aware of it? Or did ideas that had drifted down to his subconcious come bubbling up in new/changed forms?

[pleiades-rising.livejournal.com]

The way I see it, all gods are or are part of the same universal being. Religion is the just the way you worship that being.

Just because I worship Him/Her/It one way doesn't mean that it's the only true way to reach out to that being. ...I don't really get what all the fighting and fussing is about between all the religious groups.

I'd say God is the ultimate multiple. ^_^

[kuwaizair.livejournal.com]

fazooo! how intreging. I have somthing I typed up in my nyathea jounral. I'm trying to figure it out myself.

called it 9 are confussed. though i didn't make room for other ideas.
there are some potentily "flamish" things in Nyathea. don't let my word usage confusse you, as far as I know its just me and only me, parts of me, but me normlay on the whole. and me throgh others. there is no 'we" here.

theres also some paranoia in Nyathea's journal. such as the body and soul being differnt peole. so then If a soul sleeps then who am I? what happens when "i die", and that soul wakes up. do i go somwhere do I get a new existance?

it goes with my "9 are confussed"