Multiplicity

Im frightened of losing him. I'm frightened of her finding a way to make sure he stays with her.
I can't talk openly with all three, i would then be betraying the trust of the third. (The other two dont know about him) but he is one of the most powerful and he has the most control over the other two.

In fact no im not frightened, im terrified.

From:

luwana.livejournal.com

They have to know about each other if any of this is going to work. Otherwise it's going to get messy. Until they know of and accept each other this is NOT going to work.

There is your issue. The thought of losing him. This is what you're going to have to work on. What bothered my mate was the thought that he'd lose me. It has taken a long time for him to realise it's not going to happen. He used to have near panic attacks, there have been tears. But he's finally realised that I am still here, and I still love him, and that my or Selene's relationships with other people won't affect him and me.

It does take time. But you have to work through this WITH them.

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I know i have to work with them but there are issues. The second personality has a really mean streak and often wants me to do things that aren't fair on the one i love. But i do it to keep him. I know he has the power to take him away from me very quickly as does the third. I feel like i'm fighting a losing battle sometimes.. the only thing that really holds me together his my love for him and his for me and my faith in god that he won't let him be pulled away from me.
I know he is my soulmate. I couldn't bear it if i lost him, i really couldn't

As for the knowing about each other, i will have to talk it through with the third personality... It is his decision and i can't take it away from him.

From:

luwana.livejournal.com

Before you get anything sorted, they really need to get their act together. Put the second one in therapy, do what it takes. Until they're completely functional there is going to be angst.

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By the end of this rollercoaster it's going to be me that's in therapy!!

I'll try reeeally hard to take your advice. It will be very difficult though - if you met him you would know what i mean. He has gone through life getting whatever he wants (he is a very attractive man that is used to having his girlfriends bend over backwards to obey him) so i have to be really strong to put my foot down. He also does mean things to the main personality - like hurts him from inside... or puts him in really bad moods all the time and constantly makes him pick fights. He has a lot of control which is why i have to be really careful to keep the balance right:S

From:

whispersong.livejournal.com

i have to agree with luwana on all of her statements. If this person, as you say, has this much control then your other two friends need to find a way to either negotiate or wrest control from him & move on. therapy i never advocate b/c i see no sense in it. shrugs thats just me though.

i will say this much: be strong & be willing to flex. If he is not willing to flex too though then your jobs harder & he is not fulfilling his obligation to you.

Fearing the loss of someone is understandable, i am mated to two people & yes i do wonder what i'd do w/out them, but i also realize i will go on if i lost one or both of them. There is no other way in life unfortunately.

{J}tatiana

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kiya

If you're going to be in a multiple relationship situation, negotiate it up front and be clear on everyone involved's boundaries. Basically.

If one person isn't able to behave in good faith (like seems to be the case with #2 as described), find out how to control that person's potential for damage. In a singlet situation, common advice would be to not interact with that person, but that isn't feasable, so you'll have to find another way to handle it.

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I feel like their mother sometimes, i have to avoid landmines set for me but also make him feel like he's getting his way when he's only half getting it:p

The worst part about #2 is that he can hear pretty much everything that happens while #1 is out - number 1 doesn't have the power to block him out. (There is one thing that i can do when i need to have a secret chat with him but it only lasts a minute or so) Number #3 can see whatever he wants whenever he wants - but the other two seem to be sent to sleep or at least somewhere far away when he comes out.

I try my very best to create a balance between them but it's good to talk about this to other people, i've had to keep quiet about it for so long.

By the way i'm referring to them as 1 2 and 3 because i feel i am betraying our secret too much by talking about their names...this way it can just remain anonymous:)

From:

iamshadow.livejournal.com

This doesn't sound so much like a relationship issue as a self-esteem issue for person #3. He seems to be seeking out this other girl deliberately, even though he knows she has hurt him in the past. That's a big sign of someone who doesn't respect themself enough, or doesn't respect their own right to be happy or be in a 'balanced' relationship.

Person #3 is deliberately seeking out a person who's a 'user' and a possessive, selfish one at that. From what is generally the 'type' in these situations, she's probably a not-so-subtle manipulator, who breaks him down, tells him what's wrong with how he is, and makes him believe that he can't exist or survive without her to 'support' him and clean up after his 'messes'. She probably sets him up to 'fail' by whittling away his self-belief and making him completely dependant, then reinforces his failure by using it as an example as to why he needs her.

For person #3 to even re-establish contact with this person without addressing his self-esteem and self-image issues would be a big mistake. The patterns and reactions she established in him are still there, even if inactive. Any re-establishment of contact, and he would fall back into them, come to 'heel' for her in a moment.

A book I found useful in building my self-esteem was Overcoming Depression by Paul Gilbert (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195143116/qid=1105493831/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/104-7183527-6351113). It deals a lot with self-esteem issues (as a lot of seemingly non-causal depression is linked to self-image/esteem/belief) and helps you change the way you think about yourself and your abilities to deal with situations like the one you've described.

Amazon.com has it from as little as $6.95 used (not including postage). It's worth it, and it's a very good alternative to paying $100 an hour for therapy, which would probably deal with the same techniques (Cognitive Behavioural Therapy) anyway. I found it quite empowering and self-esteem boosting to treat myself, as a matter of fact. I knew that it was *me* making the changes and taking control, and there wasn't that element of shame that many people feel if they have to seek any form of mental health treatment.

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You are right, she is possessive and selfish but it's not #3 that she has hurt.
The problems that she has caused are problems for number #1, she constantly rings them up and texts them trying to get through to the person she wants, which is number #3 - he is the one that fell in love with her and he is her only chance of getting them all back.
She has caused no end of pain and hassle and i am in the process of getting number #1 to change his phone number so i can at least take a bit of it off his shoulders.

From:

elenbarathi.livejournal.com

My honest opinion? You're probably not going to want to hear this, but I seriously doubt you've got any chance of a successful relationship with any of these three guys unless/until they all know about each other and start negotiating with one another.

"I can't talk openly with all three, i would then be betraying the trust of the third. (The other two dont know about him) but he is one of the most powerful and he has the most control over the other two."

Asking you to keep secret the existence of someone else who shares the same body is wrong - that's a "bad secret", one that causes harm to you and/or someone else. You are not under any obligation to keep bad secrets.

I say, if he won't make himself known to them so that you can talk openly with all three, it's best you end your relationships with them, and tell the two who don't know the truth about why you're doing so. Yeah, that's harsh, and I know you're scared, but the alternative is to go on living a lie until the whole situation blows up in your face.

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You are not under any obligation to keep bad secrets.

I disagree, but this is because I take trust obscenely seriously. A secret is a secret. Everybody is under obligation to keep secrets. The question is whether each individual feels that breaking that confidence, betraying that trust, is worth it. You in this case believe it would be. Others would not. It's all down to our individual morals.

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elenbarathi.livejournal.com

Yes, it does. I believe that the moral obligation to avoid being a party to harmful acts outweighs the moral obligation to keep a secret.

Of course, I would not agree in the first place to keep a secret I felt was harmful. If someone I love was being controlled by a person about whom they knew nothing, I certainly wouldn't promise that person not to tell them. On the contrary, I'd be telling them at the earliest opportunity.

*shrugs* Type "bad secret" into Google; there are lots of sites explaining the difference between a secret it's right to keep and one that isn't.

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Technically hiding from others in a system is not a harmful act. It is only harmful if that person begins doing harmful things. Confusing, yes, maybe. But what if person number three cooked dinner. Did some of their work for them exceptionally well. While them being secret may bother many people, I can't say it wouldn't be unnerving, it isn't harmful until it poses a threat to the body's health/life/career/relationships.

My opinion may also be because 'if someone I loved' doesn't come into it for me. A person is a person is a person. Expressing bias in any way because you love them is... We just won't go there.

My point is that until person three starts doing rather extreme things, which as far as we can see, they haven't yet, talking to them and trying to convince them gently to come out themselves is likely the best option. Whether you would have made that promise or not (which again, we won't go into) this person HAS promised, it is done. Personally I think the one I'd be most worried about is the second personality. The third one is in love and that's about all any of us here know. Hardly harmful. Coaxing them out is a goal. Forcibly outing them is... just no. Not unless it was an absolute requirement for the safety and well being of the system.

But clearly we have different moral ground here.

From:

elenbarathi.livejournal.com

Sounds pretty clear that she is being harmed by this secret:

"I feel like i'm fighting a losing battle sometimes.. the only thing that really holds me together his my love for him and his for me and my faith in god that he won't let him be pulled away from me."

"By the end of this rollercoaster it's going to be me that's in therapy!!"

This third person, of whom the other two know nothing, wants to resume a relationship with a former lover:

"i know that if he were to contact the girl at all she would be back on his case again (she caused my SO a great deal of discomfort by constantly pestering and even calling in the middle of the night and waking him up) I have heard about a great deal of her plots to "steal" him back including trying to seduce him and getting herself pregnant. They havent seen each other for 4 years yet she cant let him get on with her life"

I'd say it's pretty obviously harmful for him to make that decision without consulting the other two who share the body, at least one of whom has asked

luciastorm to marry him.

*shrugs* If you don't feel people have greater obligations toward people they love than toward "any person", that's fine. I don't agree.

I thought we'd established pretty clearly last time (http://www.livejournal.com/community/multiplicity/161483.html) that our "moral ground" is quite drastically different. That person took your advice (http://www.livejournal.com/community/multiplicity/162970.html); this one may do the same... *shrugs*... everybody makes their own choices.

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"I feel like i'm fighting a losing battle sometimes.. the only thing that really holds me together his my love for him and his for me and my faith in god that he won't let him be pulled away from me."

You do realise that this quote was in reference to the second personality, who frankly appears to be the main issue here. While getting them all aware of each other *is a goal*, it would appear from how upsetting she finds him, that the second person and his attitude is what is causing the most angst and friction. If that person is dealt with, it's entirely possible the third will feel more comfortable about coming out. As is, he has made no move to actually yet go against the wishes of the other two involved, which means it's entirely possible he can be reasoned with.

There are other, more contructive ways to go about this than just breaking someone's trust. That should be a last resort, not the first thing you do. If you really love someone then wouldn't you try to take the most gentle and careful route to ensure all your loves came out happy, rather than just doing the equivilant of smacking them about with a blunt instrument?

(My comment about people we love is, if for example, Kinjou, my mate, was being a dick, and was clearly wrong, I would not say that he was right. I wouldn't put any kind of heavy bias on him just because he is my mate. If he's wrong he's wrong.)

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(btw, since you bring up our last little discussion, I took my own advice as well. I haven't cut in months. There was no angst involved in this. I didn't have to go for walks or listen to pretty classical music or voulenteer at any shelters. I did the most logical thing. I managed to fix the problem that caused my desire to cut. And until I achieved that, cutting kept me sane, kept me rational. Fighting the urges would have crippled me. I know, I tried. Cutting is not the problem. It never is, unless a person's life is at risk. The problem always is and always will be that which causes the urge.

Like I said. Not an addiction. Merely a coping method.)

From:

chezames.livejournal.com

We are in a similar situation, altho We are the multiple ones. Cassie was, and still is, in love with DQ. But he is in another state so we never see him. Right before We met my (Lynn) fiance, Cristie had fallen in love with PK. It was a bad relationship and could not work. But she still loves him and when she talks to him on the phone she just wants him so bad. My fiance doesn't want him to know about "us" becuz he's afraid that PK will see that as an oportunity to win Cristie back.

As to if We think it's fair for members of a system to see other people when one is in a long term relationship, no, not for us. We agreed long ago that if We met a guy that loves us all and We decided as a system to have a long term relationship with this person, that it would be monogamous. So this is what we did with Keith, my fiance. Cassie and Cristie talk to their loves, but they know it can never be and are OK with that (most of the time!). Keith is *semi* OK with them talking to their loves, as long as it's not done in secret. However, this is just us, We know other systems that are different.

From:

shadowechoes.livejournal.com

First, I would acknowledge them all as separate people, each as individuals instead of "alters" or "personalities". Just like individuals who don't share one body have rights as individuals, so do people in a multiple system. The other members of your SO's system have just as much a right as your SO to have their own relationships, even sexual ones.

That said, I can see where you're coming from. We're married to another multiple system, and almost all of Us are involved with different members of Their system. However if any of Them were to want a relationship outside Our system.. it'd be very hard for Us to deal with, even though We recognize each of Them as individuals and that They have rights as such. At least there are plenty of Us for Them to be with.

I think you need to have a talk with your SO and the others in your system. This particular other woman sounds like bad news for Person #3, as well as the other two in the system. But perhaps you all could discuss openly about the others having healthy relationships and making sure that your needs and concerns would be met still by your SO in the system. Perhaps they can all agree to have monogamy with the body - each having individual relationships with just you. But be prepared for other members of the system wanting to pursue their own SOs.

Good luck.

~Jordan

From:

mysticeden.livejournal.com

I'm just wondering about you falling in love wiht one of your personalities? whats up?

Joe

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I thought she said that at first too. She meant falling in love with other personalities in her mate's body.

From:

mysticalunicorn.livejournal.com

Ah okay. What i thought at first was kinda creepy.

joe

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Falling in love with a member of your own system is creepy? o.O

From:

mysticalunicorn.livejournal.com

To me it is.

Joe

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I'm curious. Why?

From:

mysticalunicorn.livejournal.com

well at least in our system most people are like family so it would be like dating my sister...=S

Joe

From:

ques-nova.livejournal.com

I find that for multiples who have very strong others (as in ones who front frequently and for extended amounts of time) polyamory is the best approach.
My others are allowed to pursue other relationships (with those I'm involved with or other people) so long as everyone is open and honest about it.

From:

Yes i agree with what selenesb said, Number #2 is the issue. Although number #3 is still in love with this other girl he has been nothing but sweet to me and has helped me to cool down Number #2 on several occasions.

Number #2 never does anything like cutting or harmful in that way but he has a lot of control over number #1 if he doesn't get his way.
He also has a big power issue, he tries to get me to do things to number #1 that makes number #2 the "boss" and wants me to prove that i am "bad" enough to be his girl (number #2's jamaican descent is very obvious) Although number #1 is the one that is out 70% of the time the other 2 are much stronger and number #2 especially, makes number #1 get angry at me for petty things - it's like he puts him in a grey cloud all the time.

And elenbarathi - leaving them is not an option - i think number #1 would cease to function - he is madly in love with me and i think he would give up and let the other two take over until he is non existant.... and i can not do that to him. I have to find a way around it.

I don't think i can possibly put into words how thankful i am to all of you for posting - i have no friends or family or anybody at all that i can talk to about this because nobody knows, it is a huge secret and i feel extremely lonely about it sometimes. Thankyou for letting me feel that i do have somebody to turn to who understands and will not look on it as...wierd or strange because it just makes me angry when people believe stereotypes like that. :) :) :) :)

From:

ramlatch.livejournal.com

I think unless you two are going to be okay with a polyamorous relationship then bluntly the best thing is to just tell the third that she's bad news for the entire group of you and that's that.

Good luck :/

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Thanks - that is exactly what i am going to have to do. In a way he knows it is unfair on me and her which is why he hasn't done anything yet... from reading what you have all written you are obviously split in opinions but i think from your help i know that i need to be kind but firm and let him know that it is not fair on anyone for him to see her...or at least give me a real chance and see if he can work it out with me before gives up and tries to see her.

As for the others not knowing about him? I will definatly speak to him about it but at the end of the day it is up to him whether he wants them to know about him or not.. Like you said he is his own individual person and i cannot make that desicion for him

Thanks everybody:)

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-I wasn't going to say anything, but I'm just briefly going to say my piece:

It isn't that an open relationship can't work. We were in an open relationship with a singlet male for years -- both of us free to see other people, and we did.

My concern is not with that. If you want to work out something like that with your husband&, that's fine. But that girl is bad news. We've known women like that and it will not get better. You are right to tell her to get lost. Do it, and make sure it sticks. Get a restraining order on her if you have to.

This sounds like a classic conning and manipulation situation between the different people in your husband's group. #2 uses #1, this girl uses #1 to get to #3... and don't be too sure #1 isn't doing a bit of manipulation on his own. People who feel powerless often do, even with the best of intentions.

Someone in that house needs to get a handle on their household management issues before everything goes to hell. It sounds like it's already well on its way there.

Pay attention to what

elenbarathi has told you. These fellows must start communicating, and they must do something about #2's vicious nature. From your description he's one of those "angry protector" blokes who thinks he's doing it for everybody's own good. He's got to understand he's hurting the very people he seeks to protect. Real protectors help and strengthen the more vulnerable ones, and he won't do that by being a harsh punishing disciplinarian.

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... *fucking gives up* Elenbarathi who totally ignored #2 as any kind of issue, instead acting like the world was going to end because #3 was shy.

I give up, I really do.

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#3 was not just shy -- he was contemplating taking up with a woman who is known to be devious and manipulative, posing a serious threat to the group's existing relationship with

luciastorm. In a situation like that, #3 keeping himself secret from the other two is a bad idea since his decision will affect their lives. I brought up #2 in this post (I was going to address that more fully in a comment to another of her posts) because I'm guessing part of the reason #3 doesn't want to be revealed is that he's afraid of #2.

It's

luciastorm's decision what to do next, and her husband&'s decision to establish 3-way communication. Lucia already says she's decided to tell the girl to get lost, and to recommend to #3 that he reveal himself to the others -- and it's his decision to do that. Let's see what she tells us after she does these things.

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Contemplating, heh, wow. I've complated such things before, wished they could happen. But I never actually did them no matter how much I wanted to. Hell I've seriously contemplated a lot worse than that, nothing ever came of it. From what Lucia has been saying, #3 is relatively harmless, he's not malicious, he's controlable. I object to the way elenbarathi flew off as if she had to grass him up NOW or the sun would go nova. There is no immediate threat here from #3, and dumping him in it is possibley the most harmful way to handle the situation.

Sorry, I just get bitchy when people who are being ignorant and smug are treated like every word they say is perfect and complete. It happens in most communities at some point or other (and it's usually me that ends up speaking out. Thus I am a trouble maker. Apparently.)

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Well, that's between you and elenbarathi -- my main focus here is on

luciastorm and what she needs to do if she wants to stay in this relationship with these guys. I've got my own opinion on what I would do if we were in such a relationship but that's me and not Lucia.

As for me I'm glad you're in this community, all different opinions are necessary.

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I don't think he is shy, i just think that he is happy like that - this way he can help when he is really needed but he has no obligations to do things for them... he doesn't come out very much and he is the only one out of the three who can come and go when he pleases - whoever is out, and he also has the ability to block the other two out whenever he wants to talk to me. He is stronger than the others but he gets tired from coming out too much.

He just wants to see her - he has stayed away from her for four years because of their desicion as a whole but he does desperatly want to speak to her again - he says that he knows he cannot resume a relationship with her, he just wants to see her.
I know a different side of her though and i know that if he sees her just the once then she will be back to harassing number #1 and it will re-ignite her interest all over again. I know that she will not be content with just seeing him the once and respecting my wishes that they do not sleep together or *you know* just intimate stuff.. I know that she will instantly start trying to find away that will mean they have to be with her and not me...like getting herself pregnant with his baby or something horrible (he has a very religious family who brought him up to marry a girl if he gets them knocked up and preferably no sex before marraige!)

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She is, i felt bad at first for her because i know what it is like to love him so much it hurts - and if she felt the same and was away from him she would be hurting too...but my opinions soon changed when she starting buying new sim cards just so she could call him from numbers he didnt reckognise and would pick up instead of just not answering and other sly tactics like that.

And about number #2 - although he does help out in difficult situations - he only does it to protect his own name, he wouldn't want anybody to think that he (as a system) is weak or ridiculous like that. He doesn't like number #1 and views him as weak...he also sees #1's love for me as a weakness, he assists and 'protects' only when it benefits him. I think he resents being 'trapped' with somebody that is so 'weak' - even though number #1 is kind and caring and sweet and is the one that i originally fell in love with.

I know that i am going to have to recruit number #3's help in this but i think that if it is wish he can do it without telling the others - i think he would be stronger against number #2 if he didn't know about him. You don't understand what number #2 is like - he is ruthless, if i win and get what i want he could do anything - send them to jail if he wanted to (which has been a threat before) it has to be ongoing, i need help to restrain him but i also need to spend time with him and make him think that he is getting what he wants.

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I have known people like #2 before -- some of them persons in multiple systems, some singlets. I do understand what he's like. You cannot go on appeasing him like that -- it is detrimental to you. Healthy relationships are not about who wins and who loses, who's weak and who's strong.

That is a very bad scene you are in.

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I know. There is a reason that he gives me such grief though...there is something that he wants me to do..something to prove that i am his not #1's

It is something i cannot ever ever ever do so i have to keep stalling in a way..i have been doing it for the past year and whenever he comes out and sees me he always leaves angry with me for not doing it - so puts #1 in a bad mood and picks fights with me through him.

Number #3 helps me sometimes, but i dont see him often anymore and i think he knows in his heart that if #2 gets rid of me then there is a chance he can be back with that other girl.

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That's why it is so important for me to keep #3 happy, i really want him to want to be with me and be happy with me - i do have feelings for him but if he reciprocates those feelings then i know he could try and help me more with #2

Aargh this is such a mess....

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