Let's get this party started
Dec. 20th, 2003 10:26 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
spookshow-girl.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
multiplicity_archivesI'll start this off with a rant:
(Let's see how many FANS I get!)
Yes, it's me, the author of Ante Up, coz I'm about to CALL
I'm tired of people talking about multiplicity like they're reading from the GRAND HIGH BOOK on multiplicity. ANY side of the fence, really.
I'm tired of the words functional, dysfunctional, empowered. Words that maybe meant something once, but now seem to mean little but terms to toss around so people have an excuse for people feel better about their apparently tiny genitalia.
I'm tired of people snarkily messing with people who are in a bad way, calling them whining, when the next minute they'll WHINE about quality of posts. You do realize that you're doing that, right, I mean, WTF do you think you are doing? (WTF do I think I'm doing? Well, *winks* You guessed it. Your point is?) Maybe you can EMPOWER your finger to scroll DOWN. If the quality of posts here is your biggest problem you might want to look into having a pack of crazy dogs attack you. (Eddie Izzard Ref.)
And quit your whining, because if you can't respect other's needs, and weaker moments, I see no reason to respect yours.
--Me
(Let's see how many FANS I get!)
Yes, it's me, the author of Ante Up, coz I'm about to CALL
I'm tired of people talking about multiplicity like they're reading from the GRAND HIGH BOOK on multiplicity. ANY side of the fence, really.
I'm tired of the words functional, dysfunctional, empowered. Words that maybe meant something once, but now seem to mean little but terms to toss around so people have an excuse for people feel better about their apparently tiny genitalia.
I'm tired of people snarkily messing with people who are in a bad way, calling them whining, when the next minute they'll WHINE about quality of posts. You do realize that you're doing that, right, I mean, WTF do you think you are doing? (WTF do I think I'm doing? Well, *winks* You guessed it. Your point is?) Maybe you can EMPOWER your finger to scroll DOWN. If the quality of posts here is your biggest problem you might want to look into having a pack of crazy dogs attack you. (Eddie Izzard Ref.)
And quit your whining, because if you can't respect other's needs, and weaker moments, I see no reason to respect yours.
--Me
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no subject
Date: 2003-12-20 08:07 pm (UTC)What I wanted to say to the ones going about the 'whiners' was...if you are so functional, then shouldn't that include something that other functional members of society are expected to have as a part of thier make-up? That little thing called compassion for others? Or maybe even politeness?
Loved the Eddie Izzard ref, too.
Wow.
Date: 2003-12-20 11:01 pm (UTC)What I wanted to say to the ones going about the 'whiners' was...if you are so functional, then shouldn't that include something that other functional members of society are expected to have as a part of thier make-up? That little thing called compassion for others? Or maybe even politeness?
Well put.
--Me
interesting thread
Date: 2003-12-21 02:42 pm (UTC)Elenbarthi I hope you stay your comments I look upon with joy & sweetness. They make Me think. Ty.
El
no subject
Date: 2003-12-20 09:39 pm (UTC)I too am tired of labels. Too many words, not enough truly say something.
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Date: 2003-12-20 10:56 pm (UTC)*nods* Fair enough, and you're certainly not required to. *grins*
Any particular reason, or just not a zombie movie fan?
I'm a big Julie fan. (As you can guess by my icons.)
I too am tired of labels. Too many words, not enough truly say something.
True, and I hope I didn't fall into that category there somewhere, as I can babble when I rant. *grins* I did try to cut it down some. *shrugs* As I said, it was a rant. I still hold myself responsible for what I said, however, so it's not a dodge by any means.
There is a point to what I'm saying, however, which is this game of multi-up-manship isn't going to help acheive anything but quick-fix ego gratification.
It engenders complacency in the people at the "top", and does nothing to help the people on the "lower" end to help themselves.
Creating a self-perpetuating cycle in which the "advantaged" are able to take advantage of the less fortunate.
The abused and still wounded are still worthy as people, and should be treated as such, not as potential targets for another's ego boost.
Hasn't that happened enough already? The phrase kicking someone while they're down comes to mind. Although in some cases, it seems to be because they're down.
--Us (UIL)
PS: Are you part of this community? Or do you not have an LJ?
no subject
Date: 2003-12-21 06:44 pm (UTC)I do not have a LJ, but I do read a lot of them.
I have not witnessed this oneupmanship in the plural circles, but then I am fairly new to it.
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Date: 2003-12-20 09:46 pm (UTC)even if i wasnt multiple, i dont think id call myself completely functional.
although, i get out of bed each morning, go to work for 8 hours, come home and repeat this 5 days a week.
sadly, i see this as functioning bascially well.
i dont look down on people who call themselves functional, i think its great, unless they get all high and mighty about it.
i forgot my point. im not actually sure i had one ... but i do agree with yours.
If you didn't have one
Date: 2003-12-20 11:19 pm (UTC)i dont look down on people who call themselves functional, i think its great, unless they get all high and mighty about it.
It has however been my experience that many people would. People have come forward now, (including offline *laughs* I read off some of my rantage to a friend) who don't take it as some sort of license to be a jerk.
At the same time, although these people may consider themselves functional, it doesn't really come up in conversation much.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but it may take a while for it to solidify, and I'm not willing to sit in front of the puter the whole time. *laughs*
Thanks for your reply, and honesty.
--Me
no subject
Date: 2003-12-20 10:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-12-20 10:23 pm (UTC)That you did it is one thing. But that you would try to understand where another is, and help them to see that they can do it as well is brilliant.
And something to be really, really proud of.
Us
no subject
Date: 2003-12-20 10:33 pm (UTC)I can respect that.
Date: 2003-12-20 11:09 pm (UTC)Sounds like you aren't interested in playing those games though. For that, I can commend you, and respect your usage of the term.
I still can't apply such terms to myself, for various reasons. Among other things, too many bad associations.
Mebbe people like you will help by reminding me it doesn't have to be that way, yeh?
--Me
Re: I can respect that.
Date: 2003-12-20 11:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-12-21 01:53 am (UTC)I have made posts in this community where people disagreed, blasted me for my thinking or called me names simply because they chose to take my post as a personal assault to them. *shrug* I am of the opinion that anyone who chooses to can read or not read my opinions, however they choose, but I will have them.
The whiners? Hey, let em be. Some folks just enjoy whining, others have a NEED to whine. Either way, no biggie.
no subject
Date: 2003-12-21 11:40 am (UTC)I wonder how many here know about the Drama Triangle (http://www.cghub.co.za/TA/drama%20triangle.htm), and - more to the point - can recognize when they themselves are taking one of the three roles in it (no points for recognizing when someone else is doing it; that's far too easy.) In my younger days I was quite a dedicated Rescuer; it's taken me a long time to learn to avoid getting sucked into the game, and I have found that the most effective way to avoid it is to just not hang out with people who are heavily into playing it.
(Just as an aside, I should think other multiple people might find the Transactional Analysis (http://www.emotional-literacy.com/tasimp.htm) theories and methods useful - and reassuring, too, since they presuppose that everyone is "multiple" to some degree.)
Anyway: if this community is mostly going to be posts of 'whining', followed by posts complaining about whining, followed by posts complaining about the complainers and/or sticking up for the whiners, etcetera ad infinitum, then I have way more interesting places to be.
LOL, "functional" - if that means "capable of living a responsible and reasonably happy life, with few or no self-generated crises", then sure, I'm functional, but it took a lot of time and work to get that way, and it takes work to stay that way. If it means "has reached the pinnacle of Maslow's hierarchy" (http://chiron.valdosta.edu/whuitt/col/regsys/maslow.html), then no, I'm not there yet.
As for my 'brothers', one is (figuratively) rolling his eyes at me for my insistence on getting into this discussion, which he sees as pointless (actually, he sees most of my online stuff as pointless.) His comment about
Enjoy the party, everyone.
drama-triangle, ta simplified....
Date: 2003-12-21 02:46 pm (UTC)Juju & Co.
no subject
Date: 2003-12-22 02:23 pm (UTC)To be honest, I have trouble relating myself. The fact that I have a habit of repeatedly "trigger"-ing people who are in a particularly bad way doesn't help, but hey, I figure I can give it a chance.
I get annoyed with the jargon, and especially with the woundology aspects -
I'll get back to you on woundology when I don't feel like setting the website on fire. *laughs*
there's a fine line between supporting people, and enabling them, and I seem to see quite a bit of enabling going on.
Agreed. I don't support enabling. (And I see a lot of enabling going on everywhere.) I do think people should learn the difference. What's good about giving real support (teach a man to fish) is that, by necessity, it doesn't provide what the people who are willing to abuse "victim angle" want. It alienates them, because they aren't getting what they were looking for.
There is also, however, a difference between refusing to enable, and being randomly malicious. That *does* provide the person with what they want, by proxy. Now, they have a pool of potential defenders, some of which may not be aware of the fine line you mention, potential defenders who, in some cases, may not have even noticed they were alive before. It helps feed the cycle of martyrdom, and enablement.
I'm no rescuer, and if people think that from that post I am, they're mistaken, and I apologize for the misunderstanding in advance.
I'm misunderstood easily, so maybe I just talk funny? *laughs* I wouldn't be surprised. Maybe I'm just tweaked. *laughs* In fact, I think I was misunderstood quite a few times in this post. I said both sides of the fence for a reason. *grins*
I can understand why you don't want to play the game. I don't intend to play the game either. I largely got involved in the first place because people were starting to seriously get fucked up with each other with shit for reasons, and it degraded into nonsense, personal attacks, and very little actual substance.
But look at the comments to this thread:
1. Links to info on TA, Woundology, and assorted others.
2. Statements to the effect that phrases like functional/empowered, did, should, and can still, mean something other than "Ha-ha I'm better than you!"
3. Perhaps functional should also include a few more ephemeral things than basic subsistance, like compassion. (Ooh, that's a wierd word for me, I've watched that one become loaded too... buh.)
4. Affirmations of the right to NOT HAVE to discuss your problems with perfect strangers (An important right, I'll agree.)
5. Statements to not assume that simply because you don't mention your problems don't mean you don't have 'em. (Also something very important.)
All potential conversation fodder, and all shit that needed to be said. I think both "sides" seemed to fare well here, insofar as getting some pretty important messages across.
As for my 'brothers', one is (figuratively) rolling his eyes at me for my insistence on getting into this discussion, which he sees as pointless (actually, he sees most of my online stuff as pointless.)
FWIW, you made some significant points yourself. Although I can certainly understand his stance on online stuff, period. *grins*
--Me
no subject
Date: 2003-12-21 10:26 pm (UTC)Our original understanding of the word empowered was that it had nothing to do with the origins of one's system, whether the system had experienced trauma, whether it had issues that it was working on resolving or not-- merely that you would not let yourself be defined by other people's ideas and boxes. It seems that the definition of the word has become warped from what it really was originally meant to be.
FWIW, we're past being -personally- offended when someone happens to post an idea on multiplicity that we don't agree with, that doesn't apply to our system. Our concern is how other people, both singlet and multiple, will react. We have seen too many systems who seemed to believe that simply being multiple or getting a diagnosis meant they had to be perpetually in crisis, that they were all supposed to hate each other and try to destroy each other and be incapable of getting along, and single persons who assumed we must be easy to exploit or dangerous, because we were plural. So I guess you could say we feel a responsibility, yes, to just say what our experience is, to let people know it is possible.
Are we proud of the fact that we function, in the sense that we can hold down a job, go to school, generally take care of our own and usually handle our own crises? Yes. We are proud that no one in the system will do anything destructive to our shared life if left unattended at the front, and we're proud that we all understand we have an equal investment in this shared body and its future. We do not disdain on principle systems who don't have the same level of cooperation and/or communication. I suppose it just too often seems to us that "everyone talks about the weather, but no one does anything about it." Granted, I've seen people asking for real solutions to problems. There are no universal motives. But I guess I, and all of the system in general to varying degrees, have gotten kind of disillusioned with the fact that some systems seem to actively refuse help-- to just want to talk about how awful things are for them and never try to change it.
And I'll be blunt here, another assumption that really bothers me is that people who don't talk about problems or traumas or abuse must have none. We'll never claim to anyone to have solved all our problems, or that 'functionality' means being some sort of ubermensch. We struggle with a lot of issues unrelated to multiplicity. it just happens that for us those are private and we would rather not talk about them in a public place. But to be honest, we do get tired of people assuming we have NO problems at ALL just because we can generally take care of ourselves and/or don't talk about them online.
(FYI, the way we would define 'dysfunctional,' if we had to put a point on it, is if a system's issues surrounding anxiety, depression, or communication are so bad that they can't have any kind of school or a job or take care of their own basic needs, and if it weren't for those issues, nothing else either mentally or physically would prevent them from being able to do the above mentioned things.)
no subject
Date: 2003-12-22 07:32 am (UTC)Also, as far as I'm concerned, a system can be Empowered while working through Dysfunction. After all, when we first came upon others in the multiple community, our system was a complete and utter mess. For us, being Empowered is all about determination, hope, communication, and freedom.
Whether someone was hurt by a bully in the hall or by a hundred men, we feel that it all depends on how people deal with life NOW, at this very moment, at this very second. We may not be fully independant yet, but oh we are working hard and reaping in the benefits as they come. That is, as far as I'm concerned, what being Empowered is about.
And I highly suggest that when dealing with other systems, even if they decide to use labels, that you cast all presumptions aside. Presumptions, we have learned, only lead to misunderstandings, fear, and eventually hatred.
-Ben
no subject
Date: 2003-12-22 08:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-12-22 12:18 pm (UTC)Ooh nononononono! I was unabashedly whining, and ranting. *laughs* Truth is, it's all essentially whining, or complaining. The issue I have is exactly what's being described, especially the scope. Some people apparently think that it's whining if someone's upset at abuse that happened to them, but don't realise that they're doing the same thing on a smaller scale over *quality of posts*.
My opinion on that:
Either everyone gets to play with the whining-complaining ball, or noone does.
People are going to abuse the privilege. They always do. Thats why, we as individuals need to develop, individually, the ability to tell the differance.
Blanket attitudes don't work, at least to my satisfaction. You might be able to scare away some of the less skilled abusers, but you run the risk of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and it's not like they'll just find someone else. Heck, they may turn the situation to their advantage and play the victim. However, educating people insofar as how NOT to enable, especially how to do so, and remain totally civil, even nice, in the bargain, makes it a poor feeding ground, and a poor tool to assist in finding another.
Thing is, I'm on no side, however I'm only to happy to play just as rough when people decide to be needlessly nasty.
--Me
And by "on no side"..
Date: 2003-12-22 12:19 pm (UTC)--Me
?
Date: 2003-12-22 12:27 pm (UTC)I make no such assumption. After all, how much do I talk about mine?
In this community? Not at all, so far. And I'm not likely to for a while, until I get a feel for the enviroment. Until then, I just plan on interacting with the people and getting to "know" them.
--Me
Re: ?
Date: 2003-12-22 07:32 pm (UTC)Well, we do thank you for not doing so. The post was addressed to the community at large, of course... not to any one group or individual, though.
I've just seen quite a bit too much lately of people on this community saying "Well, bully to you who are perfect and functional! But meanwhile we're stuck dealing with depression/anxiety/self-injury/memories of abuse/people fighting/ad nauseum." The assumption being, apparently, that 'functionality' refers, as Anthea said, to being some manner of ubermensch, and necessarily entails having none of abovementioned issues.
To me, it's as unfair and arbitrary an assumption to think that's what people mean when they call themselves functional, as to assume that anyone who -is- actively dealing with any of the mentioned issues is a worthless excuse for a human being.
no subject
Date: 2003-12-22 08:00 am (UTC)-Blade
*smiles*
Date: 2003-12-22 12:20 pm (UTC)--Me