Plural-envy? Multiple pride? I don't get it.

[allusionist.livejournal.com]

So the person I'm currently emotionally involved with (hopefully soon to be dating) knows we're binary, and has met both of us. If you read my post before, you'd know that we're both interested in her, which has caused no small amount of intenal conflict.

Anyways, the last few times she has been stressed and worried and overwhelmed near me, she's admitted to wishing she was like me, because then she could just go away inside her head and let someone else take over her life (I'd say she doesn't really get it and that's not how it works, but Dan is overly fond of doing just that and leaving me to clean up his mess so I can't really argue.) In a way, she's glamorizing it.

Now, I don't know about any of you, but I'd give my right testicle to have my own body instead of sharing. It's not a good thing, it's not convenient, it's not cool, it just causes more problems and doesn't solve any.


I won't even try to get into the issues of shared responsibility - when two people try to live one life, not everything gets done (we think the other on did it), and half the time we don't agree with each other on what to do or how to do it (at least not fully). So naturally we end up going back and forth between a lot of things, and looking like a confused hypocrite to singlets who don't know us.

And then comes the emotional problems. I confessed to a very dear friend of mine and ex-girlfriend (dated her two years) about something very bad I had done, and in the ensuing argument...
Her> Because...you were my Pip. I didn't want to think you could do anything so...destructive...so...wrong.
Me> Kittens don't stay cute forever. We grow claws.
Her> So I see.
Me> Besides, you always loved him more.
Her> Who, Dan?
Me> Yes.
Her> Maybe it was because he was the one I fell in love with in the first place. Because he didn't have you. He wasn't Kou-Ri. [her ex, a fake multiple who invented personalities to escape blame and get what he wants] But then you came, and fucked him up.
Me> No, you're wrong - he and I have always been together - it just took us seventeen years to realize that.
Her> Well, you know what. You can both go to hell now for all I care.
Me> Just don't hate him over my actions. I may be an asshole, but all he's guilty of is sleeping too much lately.
Her> I'm going to hate all of you. Goodbye.

Okay, so that does sound kind of like escaping blame, but I tend to be a bit protective of Dan, even when I want to slaughter him. I suppose you could call it a personality flaw.


Either way, I just don't understand how people think that not having something as basic as your own body that you don't have to share is a GOOD thing. I can sort of see it from the perspective of the uneducated singlet or whatever, but many of you seem so proud to be part of a system that if you had the opportunity to have your own body by some miracle of science or divine intervention, you'd pass it up. I understand wanting to deal with this and have a healthy system with open communication - but why is multiplicity ever cast in as positive of a light as it is?

Maybe you guys can shed some insight, because I just don't get it.
~Pip

Comments

[ridetothesea.livejournal.com]

For us it's the emotional connection and closeness we get with having one another near by. If we were in separate bodies, we wouldn't be able to share as much as we can now. It doesn't mean that I don't wish to be a fully separate individual sometimes, but considering I don't have that choice, I'm perfectly happy where I am.

If given the choice of being with my House or having my own body, I do not know what I would choose. If I had to lose the connections I have here and the closeness I feel, I would probably choose to remain exactly where I am.

[ohnosir.livejournal.com]

Off-topic, but <3333 your icon. XD

~DL

[ohnosir.livejournal.com]

If it's not too much trouble, yeah. Because I'd love to snag it. :D

~DL

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

Lovely icon.

[ridetothesea.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

[distalpulses.livejournal.com]

It could just be the appeal of perception from a singlet... where you are experiencing all that conflict and all the ~problems~, it's simple for a singlet to look and see how you only have to ~perform~ life functions as they understand them about 50% of the time, or less, depending on the number of members your system has.

Sunday

[thehumangame.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's just me, but it weirds me out a bit that people manage to have that level of closeness with another person and not consider it a wonderful and uplifting experience...

~j

[leucrocuta.livejournal.com]

Really agreed.

I always feel a bit weirded out by these "wish I had my own body" discussions, because personally I sort of feel like I might actually die if forced to be separated from my headmate.

[allusionist.livejournal.com]

There is such a thing as too close. Especially when you don't particularly get along with the person 90% of the time.

~Pip

[ohnosir.livejournal.com]

If some of the others could get seperate bodies...well, that seems more appealing to me for many reasons. As nice as it is to get to know these people, I can never actually look at them and touch them and hug them.
Although, some of them I would be a little scared to see out in the world! >>

~DL

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

Our experience emotionally is a lot like exogenic's. We're a gateway system, which I don't know if they are; but what it means to us is that back home, we do have our own bodies.

Would we frontrunners accept having our own bodies in the earth world? Generally, we say "In a heartbeat," because among many other reasons, this body we share is not us. We would love to look like ourselves here on earth as we do back home and have people see us, not this body. There are other ramifications, though; cultural as well as practical, things like jobs and living quarters and all that. And what would it do to the Laura-Earth interface? These are things we'd have to consider.

[leucrocuta.livejournal.com]

many of you seem so proud to be part of a system that if you had the opportunity to have your own body by some miracle of science or divine intervention, you'd pass it up

I wouldn't "pass it up", I'd run away screaming.

It's nothing to do with being "proud" of being multiple. It's more that this is who I've always been really and it feels natural and right to me. Also, I love my headmate. If she were zapped into her own body we'd lose so damn much closeness. Without each other we'd feel unbalanced and wrong. The whole idea is just... ick, no.

I do understand that you feel differently, but to me your suggestion kind of feels like, I don't know - like going up to a married couple and saying "How can you LIKE living together? I mean, I know you've made the best of it and learned to get on, but do you really mean that if you were offered the opportunity to have your own house each, you'd pass it up?"

[allusionist.livejournal.com]

That's actually a pretty weak analogy.

First off, in this day an age, a full 20% (IIRC) of all marriages end in divorce - and that number is rising. Clearly a lot of couples WOULD answer yes to that.

Second, marriage is (usually) done by choice, after years (though the dating time is shortening) of BUILDING a successful relationship. By the time the couple is married, they already kno (at least ideally) that they want to spend as much of the rest of their lives together as they can. None of us got that choice (unless there's a strange kind of multiple that's willing that I don't know about).

A closer analogy is forced/arranged marriage. That's still not perfect, as depending on what society you're talking about they might at least TRY to stick you with someone compatible (otherwise it's just money.) And of course, there is no real way to compare two bodies to one in ANY case, but I digress. People in those often find themselves in one of two situations - either make the best of it and work at making a good relationship out of what you have - or simply treat it as an obligation and cheat routinely to get some satisfaction. People who do the first occasionally do end up as close or closer than couples who choose each other...but that's not the norm.

..I know I was going somewhere with this, but I totally forgot where. >.

[leucrocuta.livejournal.com]

Well okay, so let's say it's a couple who are madly head-over-heels in love and can't bear to be separated from each other.

I didn't say it was applicable to all multiples as it's OBVIOUSLY not. I said it's what it feels like to us. Just us. Nobody's remotely suggesting you should feel the same way.

(By the way, there is such a thing as voluntary multiplicity, yes, and there's a few such systems posting here iirc.)

I have plural envy on occasion

[littlebus.livejournal.com]

I'm a singleton. I date a binary pair.

Sometimes it seems like a very nice idea to be able to "go inside" and not have to worry about the world or taking care of the body or any of a hundred little things.

[inner-clique.livejournal.com]

I want my own body here that matches my real body!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! XD *Lisa*

[allusionist.livejournal.com]

Mental age/sex/species/etc doesn't match physical? Not quite the smae problem I'm having, but I understand how that could be just as difficult if not more.

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

It's a pain in the neck.

[allusionist.livejournal.com]

I don't believe in divine intervention.
Neither do I, it's just a random example.

What I do believe in, is the chance to cycle through lives. Regardless of my lot in this life, I think that I will have the opportunity to lead the group in the next. I do believe that I am with these people for a reason.
Sounds a lot like our old beliefs, before I became disillusioned with the world and ended up an angry atheist. Thoughts of reincarnation and fate are comforting, but provide no real answers.

Mmm...there's no flaw in protecting the others in your group. At times, it's a means of self preservation as much as it's a means of protection.
I know, I know. It's kind of like the 'nobody can pick on my little sibling except for me!' attitude, except you're also benefitting from it. Actually, I kind of have that for our sister as well ^^;;;

You should ask yourself if you would honestly want your own body. Do you go inside often? What would you do without that escape? Some of us, including myself, need it. I become overwhelmed and confused,. It's much better than it was a year ago, but I'm unsure whether or not I could be alone like that all of the time. I rely on my group members.
I'd rather be overwhelmed and forced to deal with the world than be able to simply hide from my problems for a while (it's not like hiding makes them go away) if it meant not being forced to go away whenever Dan decides it's his turn to experience things like a night with the now-girlfriend (I totally am responsible for sweeping her off her feet, and damn proud of it!) and not come back until he's ready to hide from HIS problems - and leave me to fix them. I front most of the time, but when we both want to be in control, he usually wins and it's really very frustrating.

[catskillmarina.livejournal.com]

I can't imagine being separated from my headmates. We were mostly
unaware of each other from age 16-40 with a brief respite in the
90's. Those were difficult times. Happy we can know each other,
though as always coordinating things is a challenge.

--- Miri

[shandra.livejournal.com]

To me it's sort of like being married or in a relationship, but more intense. Sometimes you just want your own freaking way and space. Nothing wrong with that. But at the same time life can be richer shared, and it can be lonely on your own.

For me - I dunno. I really would sometimes like my own body, intensely. But the fact is it's not going to happen. So then I turn to the positives and they have been pretty cool - like I would never have tried gardening and now I really love it, etc. etc. etc. It's not to say there aren't negatives but they aren't overwhelming.

It sounds like the talk you had with your ex made you see a lot of negatives. Well that DOES suck (what she said and how she expressed herself). It just does. My sympathies.

[allusionist.livejournal.com]

it can be lonely on your own

I wouldn't know, I've neve been truly alone.

[weirdiguess.livejournal.com]

We spontaniously integrated not so long ago.

Believe me, you don't *want* to know. It freaks me out that anybody lives alone in their own head.

~Selene

[newsbean.livejournal.com]

I also spontaniously integrated - about three months ago. And it's totally weird and freaking me out. Mind if we continue this discussion elsewhere (so as not to hijack the thread)? I would be really interested in hearing how it's going for you, if you have found any answers, and what you're planning on doing about it.

I've never had therapy, but I'm considring it - to go look for them.

[weirdiguess.livejournal.com]

There's not much to say. We un-integrated (deintegrated, whatevery), several hours later. 'I' spent the whole time in between crying my eyes out and panicking in messenger to a friend, babbling like a crazy woman.

If it had seemed permenant it would have been too much, and I would have killed myself. I have no desire to function like that, and even if I wanted to I don't think I could.

Like I said, not much to know, but I am on messengers if you want me.

AIM: SeleneSB
MSN: selenesb @ hotmail.com
Y!: killer_from_a_saviour


~Selene

[stealthdragon.livejournal.com]

We rely on eachother - we'd probably be less functional in general, if we had our own bodies. To use a convenient example, Es tends to go mute when surprised. It's like she reaches for the language-controls, and misses/doesn't get a good enough grip. What could turn into a very akward (or under the wrong circumstances, even dangerous) encounter is prevented simply by handing off to someone else.

And me? My brainmates keep me sane, and honest with myself as well as them. It's like having friends closer than family. We understand one another, which is something I've found very rarely in the world outside our head.

- Kathru

[sharpsight.livejournal.com]

N) To note: those of us in this system certainly would prefer separation to having to share a body, some for more reasons than others. Our mutual career path is headed in the direction of the biomedical applications of nanotechnology: in the lifetime of this body, it's quite conceivable that the technology will be developed that will allow us to grow our own bodies and transfer our minds out of this brain and put each of us in control of one body, without being forced to hear the others' thoughts and watch their actions. If it weren't for that possibility, if at any point one of us truly believed that such separation was impossible and not a possibility for the future, he or she would immediately set about the task of killing the rest and claiming the body for him or herself. Whether only one person was convinced, or several came to that conclusion, the mental equivalent of a bloodbath would ensue.

Perhaps others complement each other so well that they can exist in harmony without problems. I find that there are indeed advantages to this state, but I still would choose separation over further brain-sharing immediately if given the choice.

...and, rereading the entry this is a reply to, I realise that this comment may not actually belong here. However, after having written it out, I'm someone loathe to now just delete it. If this does no good at all in adding data to your mental model of the world, I'm very sorry. *bows apologetically*

[allusionist.livejournal.com]

Pardon the OT response, but is that icon Icarus from Deus Ex?

And your thoughts on biomedical nanotech intruige me. I'm not sure how they could be used for this particular end - my knowledge of the field is fairly elementary - but I honestly wouldn't think that we understand the human brain enough yet to distinguish between personalities...

[sharpsight.livejournal.com]

N) Daedalus: Icarus was more machine-like. (Also: very inspiring game, and several interesting ideas in the sequel as well, though the gameplay was arguably worse than the original. (Incidentally, large chunks of M's personality/self-image were apparently copied from Anna Navarre.))

*nods* Not yet, certainly: others (outside the body) have suggested studying neuroscience straight out, but the current plan is to first develop nanites that can monitor and manipulate living cells in situ as well as communicate with each other, then use that technology to work out exactly how the (or at least our) brain works. Much animal experimentation for safety, of course. Eventually, at least ideally, a user interface will be created to allow direct mental control of (and feedback from) the network of nanites throughout our body (prior to that, computer interface presumably used).

From there, work for howeer long it takes to isolate the different individuals in here, identify which infrastructure is shared... do (many) more experiments, then finally (though this part could be done almost at any time past a certain point) replace each neuron, one by one, with a virtual neuron that mimics the real neuron exactly (the means of simulation yet to be developed, requiring further understanding of neuroanatomy at the cellular level). From that point, when we exist purely as a neural net controlling this body through the network of nanites throughout it, rather than as a skull's worth of grey matter, we'll also be much more free to manipulate that network, and separate ourselves into completely separate--though communicating--networks.

Further experimentation with human genetics, again either before or after: to work on a full understanding of genetics (DNA, RNA, anything significant), and then the growing of our own bodies and transference of ourselves to them, each of us to his or her own body.

The problems of governments and the like are... trickier, but managable.

It's quite a large dream, but I think it's possible within our (current) lifetime. The greatest danger: that others working in the field will develop necessary technology before we do and, having seized that grain, will procede to use it for purposes which would adversely affect us or our work. If such nanites could be developed to exist in the atmosphere, for example, the surveillance applications are terrifying when imagined under the control of an amoral government. Add in sufficient pattern-matching programs, possibly AIs once they gain sufficient understanding of the workings of human intelligence, and any work to selfishly improve our capabilities and separate ourselves could be detected, pounced on and prevented as soon as we got anywhere. So: what is important is not so much that the technology be developed (though that's certainly important, but more to the point nearly inevitable if possible, with all the people working towards it), but that we develop it first. So, that's why, while hope still exists, we've chosen this path.

*reviews comment again* One of the main problems of understanding human intelligence is scanning technology: we don't have anything detailed to reveal exactly what's going on within the human brain, so we have to just guess, speculate, hypothesise. Get individual scanners inside each cell, where they can observe and report exactly what is going on, and your portfolio of possibilities is increased incredibly.

[fadingtogrey.livejournal.com]

The only hint of enviousness I've ever heard from other people is for the escapist aspect of being the sort of multiple where those who don't front can just "go away" for a while--even for several months or years, if they choose. What such singlets may not understand is that we don't always control this, and it can be used in an unhealthy way, sometimes at the expense of your fellow headmates.

While this has its advantages, having to share a life with a myriad of others is often tiring and draining and frustrating. There is a lot of compromise involved. And there are many among us who don't front because they loathe the idea of having to share a body and life with others. (They have a definite presence and identity, but shun fronting.) Still, if we were offered the chance of having our own bodies, we would hesitate before accepting.

Like others have said, it's the closeness factor. In addition, we learn from each other in ways that would not work without the mental link. Ideally, we'd like to have our own bodies with the option of mentally going to a shared otherspace. :)

[lydiabutterfly.livejournal.com]

i like living in a system cos we have private places we can go thats just for us inside no one else. and cos sometimes i can get a system member to translate for me. if i had my own body since i can't talk just type and write and sign i'd have trouble.

but i'd like to look like myself in the mirror and have more time out in the body and not have to share and have people know me as Lydia not as the body's name and people get us confused and wonder why i'm not the others even if they don't know about us they get upset because they think is hould be able to talk cos the others do so it loooks like i do it on perpose but i dont.

and id like to have my own friends kids my age outside becaues thats hard to do when your 11 but the body is 22 and you cant talk.

[lydiabutterfly.livejournal.com]

and if i had my body i'd have to take baths! in our system one of the grown ups does that.

[khinthe.livejournal.com]

it's nice sometimes to be able to protect a member of the system, and to try to protect that person, even if you have no way of protecting the body...


It's why the others let me go away. I miss them. It's only "easier" being a single when I can keep busy, but I've noticed now that it's hard to sleep because I have to hold all those memories now and it's started giving me nightmares, paranoia even though the abusers all live at least an hour away, panic attacks, and possibly related to my migraines and chronic hives as well if you believe that mental stuff really can cause physical symptoms... There's no one left to function when I can't.

[allusionist.livejournal.com]

Wait, you were part of a system and now you're alone?

May I ask, how did this happen? Or am I misunderstanding?

[khinthe.livejournal.com]

It was like integration, only a lot mentally bloodier... it turned into an everyone for themselves killing spree and I happened to win. Mostly because one of us kept taking us back to our ex's apartment and promising nothing would happen, and blocking me from fronting as he raped me.

For a while there was nothing I could do. He threatened to destroy my life, expose what was going on to my friends, even physically harm/kill me. But as I moved and was better able to keep them apart, she weakened and I was able to kill her completely. (or, well, it's been almost 3 years without fracture at least.)

And then he failed out of his joke major here in VA and is now living with his mother on the other half of the continent "not having to deal with silly things like school and a job." Meanwhile, I'm getting my life back together hunting for a print advertising (or other graphic design) job, looking for a badass apartment (if only I could pick which state...), and possibly planning a wedding if my boyfriend and I can get our acts together and graduate this year. ^.^

That's the upsides, the downsides is that even 2.5/3 years later, I'm still having nightmares (both from as far back as my dad beating me, to as recent as the sexual abuse). I haven't gained back many of the memories so I can't piece together much of my childhood-high school. And I can't just run out of the room every time I remember something terrifying. I get tired a lot now.

Sorry for the tome. Hope it answers your question adequately.

[sharpsight.livejournal.com]

N) (*nods slightly; points to the first sentence of the above comment*

See, that's what would happen if any of us seriously thought/realised we didn't have a chance at separation. And none of us has any clue who would win, except that we each think we have a good chance, which... isn't really encouraging after you realise that everyone else feels the same way. *checks* Actually, I'm exaggerating: at least one doesn't have much hope of surviving such an outcome. But, that's one of the main reasons why it's the last resort.)

[weirdiguess.livejournal.com]

I have always said I miss having my own body. I want this body modded to be like my own. But, Lu and I had a strange semi-shared dream recently where we each found ourselves as singlets in our own bodies, and both of us did the only thing we could bring ourselves to do. Cry, howl, wail, lament at length about how living like that wasn't possible, how we each wanted the other back. In the dream when we found each other we just... went back to acting as multiple, seperate bodies be damned. Finishing each other's sentences, going everywhere together, even letting the other drink because one's too lazy, before realising that seperate bodies meant that didn't work so well anymore :P

Originally, I didn't like this, now, I could not live as a singlet. I couldn't. We flow. We near constantly speak at the same time, as one unit, we ebb and flow around, she pours the cereal I get the milk she munches breakfast I take the pills she finishes the juice. We don't so much 'switch' as co-exist. If I was offered my own body... I'd be tempted, but I couldn't do it. Neither could she.

for us, it'd be like cutting off an arm and then saying we should be happy. She's not me, but she is a part of me now. We'd lose our mids before we learned to cope seperately again. We're not just sharing a head, we're in each other's heads. We don't have to look for what the other is thinking and share it, we feel it at all times. If you don't understand that then I don't think I can even explain it well.


~Selene