Just wanted to know:

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Why are male multiples such as ourselves presumed to be criminals?

In our experience, we have been occasional perpetrators of violence, mostly in school, but we have never been the hyper-aggressive image of masculinity embodied by the Billy Milligan male multiple type. Our experience has mostly concentrated that form of aggression into one or two selves, who mainly are inactive. Are male multiples presumed to be hyper-aggressive because of stories such as Milligan, Jonah (a male-body system examined by Cornelia Wilbur), Hawksworth, etc? Why do the males get such a bad rap? Yes, we have had fights, and anger problems, but that  we're working on.

Again, responses would be appreciated.

Comments

[tessagratton.livejournal.com]

It's symptomatic of society in general. If you look beyond even the subjects you mention, in the depictions of multiples in books, TV, movies, the men are almost uniformly percieved as devient and criminal, and the woman are percieved as victims.

But even outside of any discussion of multiplicity, how often to you see women depicted as serial killers or rapists? It happens, but it is not the dominant narrative. Multiplicity offers merely another form of diviance to add onto a hyper-violent person.

Can you imagine the Western public really getting behind a male-bodied multiple (in their minds, a man) who was "crazy" AND a sympathetic victim, someone to feel sorry for? Could our society allow a man who was abused and "went crazy" to be anything BUT violent?

And for a female-bodied multiple - it would only make her MORE deviant to be violent on top of being crazy! (Please remember, I'm parrotting the dominant cultural narrative - I mean no offense by throwing around words like crazy).

It's all about gender roles. Ya know?

Dude!

[spookshow-girl.livejournal.com]

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Amusingly enough, despite being female-identified, in a female body, many of my role models are male, and I often identify better with the portrayal of male multiples than females. Which is not to say I run around killing people, but I think you get what I mean.

Both are, in their own right limiting, but I guess I'm too touchy about being pushed into the female victimised stance, or really, any gender role.

BTW: Many examples of the abuse male becoming a psychotic murderer can be seen in your standard slasher horror flick. Jason Vorhees is a prime example. His mother is a significant counter-example in that she's not sexualized, or made masculine, which is often the case in female killers in film. June Cleaver, with a cleaver.

Of course, film is not reality, but it can reflect social climates.

--Me

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

"Can you imagine the Western public really getting behind a male-bodied multiple (in their minds, a man) who was "crazy" AND a sympathetic victim, someone to feel sorry for? Could our society allow a man who was abused and "went crazy" to be anything BUT violent?"

Cameron West...

[sethrenn.livejournal.com]

Heh, but there you've got something of the other extreme of this spineless guy who's completely dominated by his wife. Neither is exactly a role model.

[base-oiboi.livejournal.com]

You should definitely look into the webcomic 'Kagerou'. It's about a male multiple who isn't as much of a typical violent male as the media would like you to believe.

[ques-nova.livejournal.com]

I've not seen a particular gender preference when it comes to stereotyping multiples as violent, volatile and even criminal. Most people and even some multiples see multiplicity as an excuse not to take responsibility for ones actions, afterall someone else was front.
We've had to make a huge point of telling and proving to those who know of our multiplicity that we take responsibility for the actions of this body, regardless of who is front. It's not always easy to get across, especially in cases where not everyone agrees on people.

Aggression issues:

[spookshow-girl.livejournal.com]

As you've pointed out, you're working on your aggression. I just wanted to add that, those are your own, and don't let them become tied up in the image that you are referring to. IME, it only adds to the difficulties involved.

Anyhow, I relate. Good luck, and keep strong.

--Me

[sethrenn.livejournal.com]

That was started by Frank Putnam back in the 90s. He claimed at one point that if you wanted to find female multiples, look in strip clubs; and if you wanted to find male multiples, look in prisons. I have no idea why people in female-bodied systems would be any more likely to become strippers than anyone else, either, but putting that aside, yeah, I agree with what people have said-- it's about gender roles. I guess the idea is that-- since multiples are all presumed to be 'sick'-- men are expected to take out their frustrations through violence, women are supposed to become self-destructive and sleep around (even though the strippers I've known weren't promiscuous at a higher rate than anyone else).

[thehumangame.livejournal.com]

Why are male multiples such as ourselves presumed to be criminals?

We are criminals. We download MP3s which we do not have a license for, and we exceed the designated freeway speed limit by as much as ten percent. ;)

...

OK seriously. Who specifically is presuming you to be violent criminals, and why? We've never really had to deal with that; people know we are responsible because we acted in a responsible manner for years before telling them there were two of us, and we still do. Maybe if certain people keep thinking you might be violent criminals based merely on spurious examples, you might be better off avoiding such people.

~j

Criminal!

[spookshow-girl.livejournal.com]

From MC Frontalot's "Crime Spree":

"I'm the #1 menace for miles around
with the littering, the loitering, the mattress tags
all the piratated mp3s I grabs [arrrr]
all the cable I stole, certain bathroom wall I wrote on" (http://frontalot.com/lyrics/crimespree.html)

*grinz*

--Me

Re: Criminal!

[sethrenn.livejournal.com]

I once loitered underneath a sign that said "No Loitering"! And I participated in a flamewar on the wall of a bathroom stall. *grin*

Re: Criminal!

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

I routinely wheatpasted my manifestos to the walls of public buildings for approximately eight years. I also cross against the lights and quite frequently drive at speeds in excess of the posted limit. And I adore baklava. Can I be in the Axis of Evil too?

(http://pics.livejournal.com/ksol1460/pic/0001wew8)

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

Media images. Sybil for women, Milligan and Raising Cain for men.

Re: A discussion in a discussion

[ridetothesea.livejournal.com]

Probably something along the lines of you have male "alters" because you are unhappy with the defined gender role placed upon you by being female, and that you are envious of males, and that secretly *you* want to be male. Or you're just displacing your own anger into a male, because you've been conditioned by society not to show it. I read something along those lines in Sybil, about the males in that system.

Which must be true of me, too, since I'm female in a majorly male system. ;)

Re: A discussion in a discussion

[sethrenn.livejournal.com]

Or that the "original" created males to serve as her "protectors" because she felt unsafe. Because men are the only ones who can ever be protectors, of course, regardless of the body's gender. *eyeroll*

Re: A discussion in a discussion

[asterism.livejournal.com]

Hah. If anyone is the protector in this system, it's the female slightly older than me. But we're heavily female, 3-to-1, in a female body. Dunno what that's supposed to mean, except that the psychological stereotypes are just that.

-Lux

Re: A discussion in a discussion

[arcis.livejournal.com]

... we have.. one generally functional (as you can hold a conversation with)/active female, the rest (active about.. 9) are all males.

need more female, it's barren here D:

Re: A discussion in a discussion

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

We are male, with a big bunch of females. Ironically, in our other world, one of the females commands an entire army, of males. She's one of the protectors in the system, and an enforcer for the Emperor in Underlanken.

However, with our system, the males are aggressive, with a lack of ambition, and the females have great ambition, but on average are usually not that aggressive.

Re: A discussion in a discussion

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

We have a female body and an overwhelming majority of male frontrunners. Back on Laura the proportion of men to women is the opposite of earth's -- 52% male. There are no clearly defined gender roles, and you are really just as likely to find men as you are to find women involved in any given occupation. The important thing on Laura is that work gets done, not who does it. The division of labor tends to be between creation and maintenance, not male-female. Amah (God) is personified as a mother, something like Mary and a bit like Aida Wedo in Vaudon.

Re: A discussion in a discussion

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, the stereotype. That hasn't been true since the 1940s, and it wasn't even really true then. (viz. The Way We Never Were, Manhood in America) The Big Strong Male Protector. Marching Past the Flags of Freedom Flying. Uh huh.

A lot of the fighting and dying in Iraq right now is being done by women. They're officially not "supposed" to be in combat, but they are -- and here's the lousiest, most rotten thing about it. If they do something that, if they were a man, would earn them a medal & maybe promotion, they don't get one because officially they weren't in combat -- even if they were!

Then they come back here and try to get help from The V.A., and are told they can't possibly have PTSD. And on and on.

Re: A discussion in a discussion

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Underlanken has been under Imperial rule for at least as long as human civilization on Earth has lasted, according to its historians. Underlanken, though, has greatly lessened gender rules since the rule of Grand Emperor Fordin VI, after the next several (only one has lasted any length of time after him) emperors, and now is open to accepting female commanders in Imperial Guard Legions. The gender role for the males of all species is to be aggressive and violent, mainly to win females or other males, but the women do all of the financial and mathematical work. You'll find the average Underlanker male participating in violent activities, and in general acting like Earthworld alpha males. However, interestingly, homosexuality is easily accepted for males, but not that easily for females. Hence the comment that the Underlanker males have aggression problems, but a lack of ambition. Sorry if that was too long a response.

Re: A discussion in a discussion

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

It wasn't at all. It is always interesting to hear about other worlds and how they do things there. Thank you.

Re: A discussion in a discussion

[ridetothesea.livejournal.com]

Male clothes are definitely more comfortable. Our body is female, and I think that even without out the guys not wanting to look girly, I'd wear male clothes. And I cannot stand carrying a purse around, and would much rather use a wallet. I've been told I must be gay because of it too. I guess women aren't supposed to be comfortable, or something.

I'm a huge tomboy, too, but I'm still female. It's one of the many reasons I hate gender roles.

Re: A discussion in a discussion

[posywink.livejournal.com]

Our creator wants to be male? Well, that would explain everything, wouldn't it? Simple, stereotyped, snap-your-fingers solutions are just so convenient! Hmph. Well, true, she's definitely not happy with some aspects of the female gender role. But she doesn't want to be male. If that were the case, she'd live as a guy in Midnight Blue. However, she's actually a bit girlier there than she is in real life.

As for males as violent criminals - it's not like that in our group. Three of us - two females and one male - either currently have or used to have criminal jobs in Blue. One of the women is the most violent, and the man wasn't violent at all (there was actually some violence done to him at times). And for us, being a protector has nothing to do with being macho and kicking ass. We're all working in a protective function when we drive, even when we're doing something as innocuous as interacting with a condescending supermarket stocker.

And yeah, child_recalled, I dig your comment about checking out dudes with your roommate. Julia (straight) and I (gay) check out hot guys together, too. We've discovered that we both have some inexplicable tastes in what we consider attractive. It's been fun talking about that stuff in our headspace. *smiles and winks*

-- Patrick

[chorus-of-chaos.livejournal.com]

it's not just you, Hollywood portrays pretty much ALL multiples (or what appears to be a multiple personality but from a clinical knowledge is obviously a shizoid problem...i.e. seeing another version of "self" in mirrors or reflections telling you to do bad things)

It totally pisses me off, it's bad enough that people think we're "oooo possessed" or some such stupid shit, but now hollywood had everyone believing we are all axe murderers and the like.

part of the reason why much of the "men" leaning might be that there have been a few cases of male criminals claiming multiplicity as part of an insanity plea, and that's how it's portrayed in the media...when in fact, very few of them after prolonged observation actually seemed to have any form of issues others than being violent assholes...

Just an IMHO from me, of the many multiples I've spoke to, met and emailed with over the years, very few had "violent" personalities, those who did the personalities were more likely to indulge in self violence (self injury, or doing things that would get the host body in trouble like drugs, etc) generally the only time a violent personality would present was in case of a physical attack on the person, and hell, singletons defend themselves, so why the hell shouldn't we??

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

What you describe is not schizoid. A schizoid person is one who feels separated from society, not from himself. He's more comfortable alone and does not need a lot of friends, a big bouncing social life, etc. We've got a singlet friend who says he is schizoid. He always told us it was one of the keys to his understanding our multiplicity; he can accept just about anything, as long as it does not interfere with his independent life, career, and projects. Mental health creatures used to think that this type of personality was a precursor to schizophrenia.

Seeing reflections of someone else in a mirror telling you to do bad things is straight out of William Marston's classic Wonder Woman -- specifically, Priscilla Rich, the villainess who referred to herself as The Cheetah. Marston, a psychologist, said that he got the idea from using mirrors in therapy sessions, to enable clients to dialogue with hidden aspects of their own natures. The Cheetah was a personification of Pris' jealousy and frustration, much more like a facet or aspect than a separate entity.

[chorus-of-chaos.livejournal.com]

I think I was going for shizophrenia...seeing things and thinking they were telling you to do things....thanks for making the distinction...I've been in a 72 hour manic phase (bi polar) ad the brain is just not gettings right at the moment!

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

Hey, no problem, I can get that way myself even without being manic-depressive!

*snicker* Some people used to think "schizoid" was another word for plural. And can I just say that your icon is Art Deco awesome.

[chorus-of-chaos.livejournal.com]

heh...thanks,,,it needs a little work before I have it down to where I want is as a Logo for Chaos Creations (I suck at drawing in ppiantsho[...oh hell, I suck at drawing) so th sigil just looks kind of off to me, but it's getting there!

[allusionist.livejournal.com]

Male EVERYONE is assumed to be a criminal. The other day my friend got into a suicidal depression and ran out of the house towards her dorm (I live a block outside her school's housing), ran into a security officer and since she was upset and I was chasing her, he automatically assumes that she's running from me and I'm some scary stalker or abusive boyfriend or something, never does the thought cross his mind that I'm worried about her and trying to help.

Bet you anything if I had been running from her, he'd at least ask her side of what happened - because, like everyone knows, men are violent and women are victims.

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

*headdesk* Tell that to our brother-in-law... @.@

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

However, the real question is, for all of you, what is the male gender role in your otherworlds? In ours, we've already told you. What is it in yours? I already know ksol1460's, howsabout the group (pun not intended) of you?

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

I think maybe you meant that for allusionist since we already answered? :)

(KSOL1460 being the group handle used by anyone who wants to say something on livejournal (watch the names on the icons -- when there's no name, assume it's someone back home who has something to say but wants to leave names out of it), you know what was said here (http://community.livejournal.com/multiplicity/532872.html?thread=8080008#t8080008); that is a description of male gender roles on Laura, our only otherworld.)

I could go on at some length about what a creation/maintenance division of labor entails along with total emancipation, but I think that might be better served up with a side of Ekristheh's cucumber salad over at beyondthegates. ;)