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multiplicity_archivesI'd like to start this by saying that surfing old posts to make sure I'm not repeating others is difficult when people don't put subjects. Just something to take into consideration.
Second, in this post I am making some assumptions based on what I've read and learned so far from talking to some of you. If I assume wrong, correct me, and I'll work on fixing my theory.
Anyhoo, while journeying through the labyrinth of old posts, I found some old posts on the effects of certain drugs multiples:
Alcohol
Psychedelics
The effects of alcohol sound about like I would imagine it to be like, but the post on psychedelics and the replies surprised me. Especially when people wrote that it sort of... helped them work with their others in different ways. Helped them see everyone at once? It seemed like some people were claiming to have everyone fronting at once (something I haven't encountered yet when talking to people or reading). Is that true?
I know many of you are healthy and functioning and your systems work and you don't need treatment. But... LSD was invented to be used medically... *eyebrows wiggle*
Do you see where I'm going with this? I'm wondering if hallucinogenics would help anyone. Psychedelics have been known to induce schizofrenia or make it worse, and drugs like ecstasy can lead to serious depression- if one person in your system suffers from those (or enjoys them, I dunno), it could hurt much more than help you all. Has it been tried before? Talked about and discarded?
Note: I am definitely not recommending the use of LSD or shrooms or even salvia. Especially not salvia. That stuff is fucked up (and yet it's legal...?). While I didn't see any replies of people seriously freaking out and having bad trips, I have no doubt that it could happen. You all seem intelligent enough to figure this out on your own, so please don't burst my bubble and show me that you're an idiot. Please.
For more information on psychoactive drugs: Erowid!
If you're interested in trying this out from reading the old post, talk to people who have done it before you do, or at least read up on the drug, the dosage, or ask a singlet who has done it. Like me! And of course, afterwards come tell me all about it. Also, people who replied in that old post about their experiences... contact me if you're willing to talk more in depth about it, YIM: mercury_is_me
PS If you think I'm completely psycho for thinking of this, think of the person who invented cheese- yeah, cheese. Oh, this milk would taste really good if we let it sit here and curdle and then squeezed it a lot! Turned out to be a successful venture, didn't it? Yep.
Second, in this post I am making some assumptions based on what I've read and learned so far from talking to some of you. If I assume wrong, correct me, and I'll work on fixing my theory.
Anyhoo, while journeying through the labyrinth of old posts, I found some old posts on the effects of certain drugs multiples:
Alcohol
Psychedelics
The effects of alcohol sound about like I would imagine it to be like, but the post on psychedelics and the replies surprised me. Especially when people wrote that it sort of... helped them work with their others in different ways. Helped them see everyone at once? It seemed like some people were claiming to have everyone fronting at once (something I haven't encountered yet when talking to people or reading). Is that true?
I know many of you are healthy and functioning and your systems work and you don't need treatment. But... LSD was invented to be used medically... *eyebrows wiggle*
Do you see where I'm going with this? I'm wondering if hallucinogenics would help anyone. Psychedelics have been known to induce schizofrenia or make it worse, and drugs like ecstasy can lead to serious depression- if one person in your system suffers from those (or enjoys them, I dunno), it could hurt much more than help you all. Has it been tried before? Talked about and discarded?
Note: I am definitely not recommending the use of LSD or shrooms or even salvia. Especially not salvia. That stuff is fucked up (and yet it's legal...?). While I didn't see any replies of people seriously freaking out and having bad trips, I have no doubt that it could happen. You all seem intelligent enough to figure this out on your own, so please don't burst my bubble and show me that you're an idiot. Please.
For more information on psychoactive drugs: Erowid!
If you're interested in trying this out from reading the old post, talk to people who have done it before you do, or at least read up on the drug, the dosage, or ask a singlet who has done it. Like me! And of course, afterwards come tell me all about it. Also, people who replied in that old post about their experiences... contact me if you're willing to talk more in depth about it, YIM: mercury_is_me
PS If you think I'm completely psycho for thinking of this, think of the person who invented cheese- yeah, cheese. Oh, this milk would taste really good if we let it sit here and curdle and then squeezed it a lot! Turned out to be a successful venture, didn't it? Yep.
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no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 09:19 am (UTC)Actually the trip I talked about *was* bad for the most part. I was seriously terrified throughout most of it, and afterward it was just awful - I was too dizzy to even open my eyes for *hours*. Ugh. It was an interesting experience, but I don't think I'd do it again.
no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 09:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 09:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 10:07 am (UTC)Okay, and I do think you're cute/interesting/intriguing. But I'm NOT a stalker.
no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 09:17 pm (UTC)Bwahahaha XD
no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 11:54 pm (UTC)it's not a war on drugs it's a war on personal freedom
Date: 2005-08-05 10:05 am (UTC)Hrmm. Part of me thinks using the plight of multiples to get a less negative view on psychedelics is morally wrong, and part of me wonders which fight is more important...
no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 10:03 am (UTC)Not something I'd want a lot of people trying. I was very hesitant about posting this, but curiosity won in the end...
no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 10:15 am (UTC)It was used as an adjunct to psychotherapy by some doctors before it was banned in the 1960s. Cary Grant actually underwent LSD therapy for several years and spoke positively of his experiences. Ecstasy also used to have a very good reputation in small doses-- it produces feelings of well-being and self-acceptance.
Personally: I don't believe that anyone should take any drug-- legal or non, prescription or non-- without researching it first to see what it potentially does, and preferably talking to people who've taken it. If they walk into it aware of all possible risks, I won't begrudge people taking any kind of drug at all-- it's a personal choice. Erowid is a good source for info on psychedelics, one of the best out there.
Yes, many multiples have reported that psychedelic drugs and alcohol have helped them get a better sense of who others in the system are and of their reality. I suspect it may have something to do with the fact that these are drugs which reduce inhibitions-- socially-conditioned ideas about being 'crazy,' 'stupid' or 'making it up' fall away, and you're more likely to accept the validity of unusual things you experience. Of course, people vary in their individual reactions to certain substances. Some people in a system may be comfortable with the effects of a certain drug while others may panic; some may find that it's a helpful part of spiritual practices or meditation, some find that it just confuses and muddles their thinking.
A lot of what you experience depends on your mood when you take it and what you expect. It is best to avoid any kind of mind-altering drug if you're scared or nervous, as this will make you much more likely to have a bad trip. A lot of people like to have a 'sitter' who can sort of 'guide them' through imagery and experiences. Because so many people grew up being forcefed Just Say No scare propaganda in school, it can be hard to sort out the truth from the facts. Again, I advise those who are interested to talk to someone who's tried it-- several people, preferably, so you can get a better understanding of the variety of potential experiences.
My opinion, and my experience, is that it's not as easy to achieve some big cosmic insight from psychedelics as the movies make it look. The only thing any drug can show you is yourself. 'Bad trips' are often the result either of suppressed issues being brought to light, or of taking the drug in a stressful setting in a bad emotional state, and one needs to remember that just because they see something on drugs doesn't mean it's true. I'm not sure if psychedelics actually improved communication for us (we actually did 'lose time' once in the classic sense, of being unable to remember anything a certain person did when they were out, which is not usual for us), but I do remember a strong sense that those in here were distinct, full, real persons in our own right, and not just figments of someone's imagination. I would say that was its main benefit to us, as well as the lowered inhibitions so that we could think about/talk about certain system issues, without being hijacked by 'you're crazy, you're making it up' social training. But, of course, one doesn't intrinsically need drugs to break through that conditioning-- it's just kind of a shortcut.
While alcohol doesn't make us feel more strongly that we are people, it does make some of us less uncomfortable with fronting and/or with expressing themselves strongly-- again, it's the lowering of inhibitions, I think.
no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 10:22 am (UTC)Kinda glad though, God prolly wouldn't have been happy to see me.
Thanks for the reply, you answered nearly all my questions. So helpful. I really want to continue with this idea.
no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 12:03 pm (UTC)These days just about the only thing we'll do is drink alcohol. In the past it caused some black outs - most of which we're still not sure if it was the alcohol or other people taking over the front back when we weren't very co-conscious. These days alcohol does help loosen us up a bit (although not always for the better :/) but in excess makes us loose a sense of who's fronting - everything just gets fuzzy and it's harder to see the inside. Co-fronting turns mushy and it's just hard to tell who all is there.
As for prescription drugs, besides the fact that none of them have ever done much for us that they were supposed to do (we've been on anti-depressants, anti-anxiety, anti-psychotics, mood stabilizers, and sleeping pills) they seemed to just make communication harder for us. Individuals experienced a feeling of loss of self and just general zombie-fication. Just made us sleep more, even ones that weren't supposed to have drowsy side effects.
The only types of drugs we've ever found to help communication were uppers - from aderol to more illicit illegal drugs such as cocaine. Those types of drugs just make us more chatty inside and outside.
All that said, I think the best thing we could have done as a system was get off of drugs - including all the medications we were prescribed over the years. We have a long history of self-destructive habits including drug use, and once we started working as a system and working to not self-destruct the shared body we were able to cope better for reasons on several levels.
It's an interesting topic of conversation though.
no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 12:41 pm (UTC)Personally, I'm paranoid about mind-altering chemicals to the point where I don't even like the idea of getting drunk. My one real experience with anything like that (morphine, after surgery) just served to remind me once again that my internal chemistry apparantly doesn't like outside interference.
no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 12:43 pm (UTC)Re: L
Date: 2005-08-05 02:47 pm (UTC)Re: L
Date: 2005-08-05 02:48 pm (UTC)Re: L
Date: 2005-08-05 08:46 pm (UTC)Damn letters popping up all over the place...
no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 03:26 pm (UTC)like the Echoes we did quite a few illicit drugs years past. we have had a lot of experience with acid, though specifically, it was ex and acid at the same time more often then not. With that particular combination, we almost never had a 'bad trip'. being that this was years ago (yay for being clean) we weren't particularly co-consious at that point, and had long since learned to ignore our bad memory, and the random .... oddnesses that the Hosts would notice from time to time (we've changed hosts many times over the years). Upon thinking about it, we can recall many intances in which we may have been seeing a 'bigger picture' of our own system, of the many indeviduals who make it up. Different faces in the mirror, for instance, very very vivid, which we can now identify as indeviduals in the system. Along with seeing these different faces, having conversations with them that felt like talking to oneself, but only in that they seemed to have the same perspective on our life in the body, not that they were the same person. Rarely does the same thing happen twice or more though, we only recall the mirror incident a few times. any others were in more of a dreamlike state where we simply would talk, and be talked to, not really seeing anyone. I'd have to say the state we were in in those instances feels like a kind of dissociation, we didn't feel connected to ourselves or anything around us, we just... were. not memory blocking, just feeling there/not quite there.
I suppose the possibility of a positive light is there, but then we were always careful about what we took and how we took it and who we were with, etc. In my time I've seen more bad experiences from others I knew personally then anything else, and it took us ODing rather critically to pull us out of the 'drug scene'. Looking back (though you'll never stop wanting it, and you hate that) we could never go back to it, and don't understand what the appeal really was in hindsight outside of 'being someone you're not', yet another teller I think towards our multiplicity.
And uppers... as Bleach ShadowEcho said, do seem to enhance communication in here. It makes the mind feel quite expanded, focused and yet open. Perhaps some kinds of uppers in moderation could also be something that might be beneficial, though perhaps not for those with very little to no co-conciousness.
We only got to this high level of co-conciousness in the last few years, and have been re-evaluating a lot of our life and putting a lot of holes together, and realizing just how selective our memories have been - including spontanious forgetting, or erasing of memories obtained on the 'inside' so that an indevidual could be a host without jepordizing the system.
My honest opinion? while the benefits are possible, the risk in the long run is too high. it almost feels like a crutch. some people need all the help they can get, others, to reach a healthy co-concious state, we feel need to get there on thier own without so many aids. soul-searching and all that philosophical stuff :p
wow I/we got rambly o.o must get ready for work now!
~ Misty/Ghost doing a lot of translating for some of the others
no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 08:52 pm (UTC)That's kinda how I feel about most psychological disorders... people start taking Prozac and they're on it for the rest of their lives. Or alcohol to feel relaxed at parties, etc.. It doesn't make sense to me. Guess that's why I'm going in psychology not psychiatry.
I think there's a way to achieve the effects of the drugs without actually taking them, it's just a short cut, as someone said in a different reply...
no subject
Date: 2005-08-06 12:52 am (UTC)(I'm not sure if you'd call it karmic retribution, but some of those in here who believe in similar concepts think that it was more than chance when he died in an accident the next year. Who knows how many patients he'd told that to, and how many of them were on worse shit than we were.)
Well, we're here now-- we stopped taking it over a year ago, and we haven't exploded. We didn't lose our minds. We did work out a lot of the problems that were bothering us, on our own. We were in a stressful living situation back then, and, amazingly, when we left the stressful living situation, we had less stress! Which he could have recommended to us (leaving, I mean), but as long as he could keep us convinced that we couldn't make it here or anywhere without drugs, we'd keep lining his pockets. *shrug*
I've heard from some people who say they really have found that a certain drug is the only thing that works for them, but we weren't among them-- we always felt from the first that we could work out the problems if we just had some time and space to do it in, and got away from some of the worse influences in our life. Very few psychiatrists nowadays will give anyone the benefit of the doubt for things like that.
no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 06:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 08:55 pm (UTC)If you do choose to smoke, use a bong... I have some moron friends that wanted to smoke it out of a pipe and that'll kill your throat. The stuff is harsh.
Sage itself also has some hallucinogenic properties.. or sedative... can't remember. But it's really not a good thing to smoke, really bad for you.
no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 10:10 pm (UTC)I believe most other species of the sage plant hold very little value where "tripping" is concerned.
-Dimitrus
MDMA
Date: 2005-08-05 07:09 pm (UTC)I'm not sure what you mean to state by indicating LSD was used medicinally, a lot of drugs have a history of medical use, although the medical disciplines might change over time. Medicine and spiritual practice was closely linked in the past, which opens the door for many interesting implications about the recreational use of certain drugs.
Ecstacy, for example, was used in group therapy, to help with social phobias. Also, there is evidence to suggest that people who have pre-existing problems with depression, or depressive episodes take up ecstacy use, either as a concious or subconcious form of self-medication. That, however, doesn't mean every person that's rolling balls is afraid of social interactions, chemically depressed, or bipolar.
--Me
Re: MDMA
Date: 2005-08-05 09:00 pm (UTC)LSD was developed for treatment of something or other, but... doctors also used to prescribe cigarettes, didn't they? Yeah, things change as we learn more about certain drugs.
I really need to get my information straightened out, I'm not getting everything I know from one source but lot of different websites, books, and teachers. Hard to find something that picks up right where the last one left off.
Re: MDMA
Date: 2005-08-05 09:34 pm (UTC)That's my understanding as well, but since I don't have the sources on that handy, I left it at my initial statement. However, presuming the above to be true, when using ecstacy, it's also my understanding that a normal dose doesn't always completely deplete your seratonin stores. It was also my understanding that those stores can be replenished. Without my sources, I'm unwilling to state the above definitively in my statements defense. However, I can point to at least one source (http://www.dancesafe.org/documents/druginfo/ecstasy.php) which states that it's the case with with some people. Most of the literature is wishy-washy, or careful to hedge their bets like that.
Personally, I know of people who attempted to use it every day for an extended period, and experienced depression. Conversely I know of others who have used it in moderation, and didn't experience depression. I hesitate to submit that information as it is anecdotal, but when dealing with illicit substances, there is a large focus on anecdotal and subjective information, with ocassional clinical studies in which the subject's history is largely based on their own account. For example how many long time ecstasy users have had their seratonin levels monitored prior to any drug usage? This is a legitimate question, not a smart ass rhetorical one.
I know how you feel, it can be really difficult to look up information on this topic. Interest is considered by many to tbe tantamount to confession.
--Me
Re: MDMA
Date: 2005-08-06 01:07 am (UTC)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD
You might read Albert Hoffman's My Problem Child...
Re: MDMA
Date: 2005-08-06 07:25 am (UTC)Wish I had lived during that time, or had the ability to go back and check it out.
no subject
Date: 2005-08-11 05:42 am (UTC)Re: MDMA
Date: 2005-08-16 08:41 am (UTC)Out of curiousity
Date: 2005-08-05 07:10 pm (UTC)--Me
Re: Out of curiousity
Date: 2005-08-05 09:12 pm (UTC)Re: Out of curiousity
Date: 2005-08-05 09:35 pm (UTC)--Me
no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 08:59 pm (UTC)Yes, I know, I'm awesome.
no subject
Date: 2005-08-05 09:15 pm (UTC)And as a prize for being awesome, you get...
A flask of curdled milk made out of a stomach!
Yayyy.
Sure, we've tried it.
Date: 2005-08-05 09:59 pm (UTC)Very, very cool.
~Jem
Additionally...
Date: 2005-08-05 10:34 pm (UTC)We also drink alcohol on occasion, and the effects that we typically note are easier communication and a levelling of control. In essence, everyone has just as much ability to front/block out/communicate as everyone else, and doing so is entirely and exclusively dependent upon the person's amount of will to do so. This can be bad at times, such as when a forceful and reckless resident wants to front. There's really nothing to stop them, except a total lockout by the gatekeeper, which is hard to put priority on when you're totally smashed and whoever's front doesn't want to go back anyway.
no subject
Date: 2005-08-06 12:38 am (UTC)We all like to smoke marijuana, and it does tend to loosen up our inhibitions, and allow us to front more easily...
however, when online, and not in front of people, we are quite able to co-front...the adults like to roleplay, and it's not uncommon for us to have several chat windows open at once, so we can all play...with each other, as well as other people...
but yeah, anyway...
Rick
Pack Collective (http://rickmacleod.bravehost.com/pack1.html)
no subject
Date: 2005-08-06 07:23 am (UTC)How very very cool.