Multiplicity

That made this question come up between us:
"If someone in a system is male, but the body is female, would that make them gay if they liked women? I mean, don't some singles who feel they are males in a female body who don't want to get a sex change consider themselves gay?"

O.o

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szczur-system.livejournal.com

We always thought it was dependent on the person inhouse, not the body. Like Matthias would say he was straight, because he likes women, even though the body is female, and Brynn would say that he was gay, even though this body being with a male would be considered being 'straight'.

Although, I suppose to those that didn't know, it would look different...

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Jay is really glad to hear that. He definately doesn't want to even think about being gay, much less considered a woman. He's a bit of a homophobe. XD But he still loves us... RIGHT??? >O OR ELSE!!!

^^;;

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You're thinking of folks who identify as transgender - either biologically male who identify as female or biologicaly female who identify as male - otherwise known as MTF and FTM.

Transgender folk may or may not opt to get surgery. They may or may not identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual, polysexual, pansexual, asexual, or heterosexual.

Transexual folks are those who are biologically one way but physically transition to become the opposite sex - people who are born male but take estrogen and shave their adam's apple and get facial reconstructive surgery and electrolosis (hair removal), and do pelvic bone restructuring (sometimes) and then get a vagioplasty (which is an inversion of the penis to create a vagina) - which allows someone who identifies as female to have a body as close to that female identification as medically possible. The same can be done for biological females who identify as male - but the phaloplasties (which is a skin graft onto the clitoris that is generally slightly enlarged via testosterone injections) aren't all that advanced and can be highly problematic causing many FTMs to opt out of genital reconstructive surgery or gender reassignment surgery.

But either way, the point usually comes down (via many research studies including my own) to the idea that gender and sexual orientation are not connected. Folks that identify as Trans (transgender or transexual) or genderqueer or gender-less may not identify with the queer community or as gay/lesbian. Even so, the assumption is readily made because they *deviate* from the norm.

Most folks would then argue that the definitions of various sexual orientations rely heavily upon one's self-identification. If I identify as female and I live my life as a female-bodied person (to the best of my ability if I'm not biologically female) and I'm attracted to other female-identified persons then I would probably identify as a lesbian, but that doesn't necessarily have to do with my gender identity.

Does it make sense? Or am I getting too splurby? My basic point is that while the two affect one another, they are not reliant on one another. Both issues rely on self-identification. There's a rising population of men who identify as heterosexual but have homosexual relationships and they are biologically male and identify as biologically male.

When it all comes down to it, it's about how you want to identify and how others read you...because how others interpret you often defines your gender identity, another reason why a lot of Trans folk opt for some sort of gender reassignment either via hormones or surgery or dressing in clothes traditionally defined per the other gender.

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Thanks for that info and those definitions. We were never sure what "transgender" meant exactly. Some of us thought it meant that you just didn't want to have the roles assigned to your gender. Some thought it meant you didn't want the roles assigned to ANY gender. Haha... that's what we get from reading the definition on Wikipedia. >.<

Anyway, thanks. Good points. :)

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sethrenn.livejournal.com

I think the simplest definition of transgender is just someone who doesn't identify with the biological sex of their body. There are quite a few transgendered people who identify not specifically as the 'opposite' sex but as non-gendered, third-gendered, both-gendered, or something else.

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Ahh... ok, I see.

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szczur-system.livejournal.com

It might make sense to make a community as such, as 'typical' communities related to the topic might not really fit as a Gay (single-minded) man might not understand that there can be a gay man in a female body, and thus might shun anyone who tried to join and be fully open about their multiplicity.

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"If someone in a system is male, but the body is female, would that make them gay if they liked women?"

:- It would if they considered it to be that way. To me it seems to come down to an issue of Gender As opposed to Sexuality. They just happen to be in the wrong body. It's not that They're Gay. The just have different parts. I would treat that as being just Straight with bad timing,...LOL,..

I mean, don't some singles who feel they are males in a female body who don't want to get a sex change consider themselves gay?"

:-Yes I'm sure that they do, but that comes about with not having the right knowledge either not at their disposal, Or that they just need to search out what feelings, regaurding their sexuality are true to them,.

I.E. do they feel compelled to stay with someone for the rest of their life who is of the same gender? Regaurdless of what body they are in, that's a fundamental question in determining weather or not you are gay or straight.

~M~

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sethrenn.livejournal.com

My opinion? Bodies are only important insofar as legal recognition of a relationship is concerned-- for instance, if a woman in our system wanted to marry a man in our partner&'s system, or vice versa, we couldn't (yet) do so; it would still be seen as a homosexual relationship by the state because our bodies are both female. That would only change if one of us managed to get the sex listed on our birth certificate legally changed-- and usually, afaik, this is difficult to do unless you've had sex reassignment surgery, which neither of us have any intention of going for.

For my part, though, I'll respect people at face value as being the gender they say they are-- it doesn't matter what their body is.

purplesockz gave a good explanation of the difference between gender identity and sexual orientation, so I don't think I need to add anything to that.

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ksol1460.livejournal.com

There used to be one awhile back. It never really took off. You could try it.

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is cool it's my current area of study so I'm always waiting for a chance to splurb.

Now if you're talking about someone who doesn't identify with a gender in general you're probably thinking of someone who IDs as genderqueer or gender-ambiguous or androgynous. Androgynous has been kind of pushed out of the running because it is often looked at as not so much personal identification but more what one is wearing and the style of hair/make-up they have/don't have/use/don't use, etc.

Gender identity is very confusing. There are also 5 documented biological sexes, it's just that medical science sticks to 2 - biological male and biological female or XX and XY chromosonal pairs. If you read Gender Outlaw: On Men, Women, and the Rest of Us by Kate Bornstein it's a fascinating and hilarious read on gender stuff - she's funny and it's really easy to read and not so long. And she does this whole "Q & A" at the beginning that really does ask and asnwer a lot of questions people want to ask but are afraid to ask a trans person/trans woman. She's an MTF Transexual.

I love the book. Or "Last time I wore a dress" by Daphne Scholanksy (or something similar) or Transgender Warriors by Leslie (Les) Feinberg.....

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or Two-Spirits, they were in the SF pride parade!!

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Grr to the people who oppose gay marriage!

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To answer the post question :) I would LOVE a queer_multiples community of some sort, I think it'd be great. I have also wanted to have the conversation (but haven't been able to yet) with someone(s) about how this whole thing works....I'm female-identified and the body is female and I identify as a lesbian, however there are female-identified folks in the system that identify as heterosexual so often we are read as a system as bisexual although as the main host/front-running I find that insulting because I *am* a lesbian and *my identity* is the one most present to the *public*......it's so confusing!!!! And there are many in the lesbian community who won't date bisexual women so I'm always a little nervous because the "bisexuality" part isn't "me" but it "is" so it' hard to explain....my ex never understood it. Not that she understood anything, really.

Eh.

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*Puts them on reading list* ^^

I've told people that I was androgynous before. Heh... even though my name is a girly name. :P

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Folks that identify as Trans (transgender or transexual) or genderqueer or gender-less may not identify with the queer community or as gay/lesbian. Even so, the assumption is readily made because they *deviate* from the norm."

:-I think that weather they identify with the "Queer" (I hate that word BTW) community or not is irrelavent. I condemm those who can not or will not support anybody else with a differing Sexuality than "The Norm." I think our community as a whole should come to recognize this.

"If I identify as female and I live my life as a female-bodied person (to the best of my ability if I'm not biologically female) and I'm attracted to other female-identified persons then I would probably identify as a lesbian, but that doesn't necessarily have to do with my gender identity."

:-Yeah but it comes down to Sexual Identity not Gender Identity. If you Sexually Identify with the same sex then you are pretty much Gay, There are Varying Grey Areas,. Of course.

"Both issues rely on self-identification. There's a rising population of men who identify as heterosexual but have homosexual relationships and they are biologically male and identify as biologically male."

:-Woot! I'd love to have a bunch of Heterosexual men whom have a homosexual relationship with me,.......On any level.

Also I would just want this community to be open to all.
Any Sexual Minority would be welcome to talk about any issue,.
There would just be the added Multiplicity, and the day to day issues and funny sayings, and arguemnets, and support of living Plural and Sexuality,.

That's what I'm aiming for.

~M~

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Right - names generally don't have much to do with it although there *are* androgynous names like Jo or Alex or Jamie or Sam or Nikki.....I love the name Jo for that purpose and I wish I could change my name but it just wouldn't feel right!!

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See this is the type of stuff I would want to see on the community if I create it.

~M~

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Huzzah!

They suck and not in that good way,.

~M~

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That's why I would make it a private community and ask that those who wish to join please tell me a little about themselves and how they feel they are,.

Along with, what ever else they wish to tell me.

~M~

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I understand your aversion to the term 'queer' however it wasn't used maliciously - I identify as a queer lesbian, the term is pretty 3rd wave feminism X/Y generation GLBT+ folk though so I'm sorry, I shouldn't have generalized. There is a body of Queer Theory that is becoming academically sound, it was born out of 2nd wave Feminist theory and there's some good stuff in it - Annamaria Jargose (Jagose?) has a good intro called "Queer Theory: an introduction" that's not a hard read if you like theory.

As far as identifying - because gender and sexual orientation are not causationally related - they do not cause one another but affect one another - there are Trans-folk who do not identify with the GLB community (Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual). However, more often than not GLB organizations/centers tack on the "T' because in the last 10 years or so there has been a movement to include the "T" because Trans folk often find community in gay/lesbian spaces.

But this statement - ":-Yeah but it comes down to Sexual Identity not Gender Identity. If you Sexually Identify with the same sex then you are pretty much Gay, There are Varying Grey Areas,. Of course." I would have to disagree with. The issue isn't so solid for every single person. Gender and Sexual identities are fluid just as Multiples are fluid. If one's gender identity is female and they are sexually attracted to another female this does not make them a lesbian - it means they are sexuall attracted to another female. They could identify personally as lesbian, heterosexual, bisexual, pansexual, polysexual, or asexual and still be attracted to another self-identified female.

WHen it comes down to it with either Gender or Sexuality - the big push is to let folks self-identify, because there's a lot to choose from and harm in choosing for folks.

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I think i might,.

I think it would help alot,.

But I don't really want it to be just about support all the time,. I just would like to see it grow into a place where anyone who has a question about living multiple and Sexuality can come and talk about it.,

~M~

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