Questions about how multiples work.
Feb. 16th, 2004 05:45 am![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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multiplicity_archivesDisclaimer: Opinions and confusion points of separate splits in here do not reflect on the opinions held by all. - W***
We have been wondering about these for a while, but did not have anyone we could ask. Any input or opinions are welcome. I understand how multiples work; I just get confused when it doesn’t follow standard definitions. It makes me wonder if I am just being delusional. - L**
Do all multiples hear voices in their heads? We were wondering about this. We almost never ‘hear’ anything. We tend to just switch and often know what everyone else is thinking, but not because we had a conversation, but because we just know. Do you have to hear voices in your head if you are a multiple? What does it mean if you do or don’t? - L**
Does anyone have somebody in their head that is in denial about them being a multiple? For example explaining shifts and alters as attention getting devices caused by sleep deprivation. We have never been abused in a ‘conventional’ manner when we where little, so she says we have no reason to be a multiple. This person in my head is very logical. What are logical reasons to prove that theory wrong? - W***
Does anyone else have splits that do not front and will hide if looked for? Why does this happen? What does this mean? Does it mean that we have hidden parts that are likely to do something evil at the worst possible time? - L**
Is there such a thing as a multiple that will not randomly lash out and hurt people that are close to them? - A****
Compiled by W***
We have been wondering about these for a while, but did not have anyone we could ask. Any input or opinions are welcome. I understand how multiples work; I just get confused when it doesn’t follow standard definitions. It makes me wonder if I am just being delusional. - L**
Do all multiples hear voices in their heads? We were wondering about this. We almost never ‘hear’ anything. We tend to just switch and often know what everyone else is thinking, but not because we had a conversation, but because we just know. Do you have to hear voices in your head if you are a multiple? What does it mean if you do or don’t? - L**
Does anyone have somebody in their head that is in denial about them being a multiple? For example explaining shifts and alters as attention getting devices caused by sleep deprivation. We have never been abused in a ‘conventional’ manner when we where little, so she says we have no reason to be a multiple. This person in my head is very logical. What are logical reasons to prove that theory wrong? - W***
Does anyone else have splits that do not front and will hide if looked for? Why does this happen? What does this mean? Does it mean that we have hidden parts that are likely to do something evil at the worst possible time? - L**
Is there such a thing as a multiple that will not randomly lash out and hurt people that are close to them? - A****
Compiled by W***
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no subject
Date: 2004-02-16 03:34 am (UTC)we hear talking/noises inside. people inside can carry on a conversation, but usually the person in the body can hear muffled, or distant. almost like people talking in the next room, you can hear noise, but cant really understand whats being said.
not all multi's i know hear voices. some i know 'hear' through thoughts, which sounds kind of like what you described.
we had, and still have, several people who dont think we are multiple, and also some who believe they are the only ones in the body. funiest thing someone inside ever said to me was 'you know how you reakon you hear voices...'. it was almost that moment that she realised there was more than one of us.
we also have people that dont front, and who hide, or stay in hiding. they dont wish to be known, for reasons unknown to me, because i dont know them. i dont think it means they are evil, or going to do something evil, its just them. maybe they were created to hide and stay in the shadows?
is there such a thing as a human that will not lash out and hurt people close to them? i dont think its a standard that just coz someones multi, that they are going to hurt people around them.
sure, there are some alters that do hurt people, physically, emotionally, whatever, but people who arent multi also can do that.
i try not to make excuses for anyone in our system, but most of the time anyone hurts someone, usually emotionally, its to protect us, or theirself, in some way.
we dont have anyone that would hurt someone just for the fun of seeing someone hurt.
ok, this is turning into an essay-lenght ramble, so ill shoosh.
-Kaits
no subject
Date: 2004-02-16 04:07 am (UTC)I, personally, don't usually hear the others as a voice, more as a sudden thought or idea that isn't mine, and hasn't come from the trail of thought my mind was previously following. However, in saying that, there have been times when I have heard conversations going on between others, but I have only really heard these when I've been falling asleep/waking up.
Does anyone have somebody in their head that is in denial about them being a multiple? For example explaining shifts and alters as attention getting devices caused by sleep deprivation. We have never been abused in a ‘conventional’ manner when we where little, so she says we have no reason to be a multiple. This person in my head is very logical. What are logical reasons to prove that theory wrong? - W***
Who says she's wrong about the abuse? Maybe it's just that you guys haven't heard about non-trauma multiplicity. Some multiples just *are*, and haven't come about throught trauma or splitting.
Does anyone else have splits that do not front and will hide if looked for? Why does this happen? What does this mean? Does it mean that we have hidden parts that are likely to do something evil at the worst possible time? - L**
We have ones who don't speak or front much. Don't assume the worst though. They might not be malicious. They may just not be social.
Is there such a thing as a multiple that will not randomly lash out and hurt people that are close to them? - A****
We don't. If you have stresses in your life, you need to learn how to deal with them appropriately. If you're finding yourselves with a lot of pent up anger and frustration, maybe take up something challenging such as exercise (ie. jogging, swimming, martial arts) that can allow you to focus aggression into it, rather that sitting on it until you explode.
If exercise isn't your thing, maybe try painting, drawing or working with clay. We do all three at times, and nothing beats working with a malliable medium such as clay or playdoh. You can squeeze, smack and punch the hell out of it, and no one gets hurt.
If you have certain system members who are behaving aggressively/antisocially, then you need to have a sit down as a system and work out some ground rules for acceptable behaviour.
Look for causes behind behaviour rather than just condemning it. System members are people too, and react just like normal singlet people do. If their needs aren't being met, (ie. not enough front time, not enough time doing hobbies/things they want to do, not enough say as to system policy, etc.) then they *will* act out. It could be that they've been trying different methods to get attention, and they've resorted to destructive/aggressive behaviour because other things haven't worked.
Oh, and never forget the importance of writing things down. I know you guys obviously have a webjournal, but a lot of people have one of the paper kind too. It's up to your system whether you decide to have a group diary, or different system members have their own. I've heard of systems who use different coloured pens for different members, and others who just all write in the one without any defining breaks. If your system co-consciousness isn't huge or very efficient, having a journal might be a good way of finding out how everyone's doing, and might improve efficiency if you can leave notes for each other.
Hope this helps.
Ruth & co.
I think I need to clarify parts of my questions.
Date: 2004-02-16 04:28 am (UTC)We do not feel the need to hurt people. Two of our former lovers did, occasionally lashing out at us. This was bad, worse if we were 7 at the time and had our shields down because they were supposed to be safe. Now our kids are kind of afraid of multiples.
I can sometimes hear conversations, but not hold them when I am front. Sometimes we can talk the kids into calming down if they are upset, but it is not a two way convo.
I’m sorry. I’m not great at writing or writing about this. *ears slightly back*
Re: I think I need to clarify parts of my questions.
Date: 2004-02-16 04:54 am (UTC)If you've had a bad experience with someone who was unpredictable and violent, that's going to leave a lasting impression, whether they were singlet or multiple.
Basically, the only way to deal with it is for all of you to try and process what happened and understand that not *everyone* is going to be like that. And the better you all get, the better all your self-esteem levels are going to be. And when your group self esteem is good and you've learn to spot a louse at fifty paces, you're less likely to get into another abusive situation, because you won't be as 'attactive' a target for an aggressor who wants someone to dominate and belittle.
I’m sorry. I’m not great at writing or writing about this. *ears slightly back*
You're okay, you're doing fine. Don't be so hard on yourself. Hey, at least you're *asking*, rather than just sitting back wondering. Asking takes all kinds of courage.
no subject
Date: 2004-02-16 07:05 am (UTC)Denial: Oh sure there are people like that. I don't think you can convince them logically - eventually they have to be willing to experience the shock/pain/horror that they are not in control of their own life. Some systems have gone to extremes to do this.
People who don't front: Not everyone likes to front. I wouldn't ever assume someone's evil without a lot of evidence.
Not lashing out: I think if you substitute "human being" for multiple you'll find the answer about the same. In multiples sometimes the cause-and-effect is not as clear, because people can experience time differently and so be in pain from something that happened eons ago, or be affected by someone else's emotions and lash out in a protector-y way on their behalf. But most human beings will have times in their lives where, when they are in pain - physical or emotional - they lash out.
Shandra
no subject
Date: 2004-02-16 08:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-02-16 08:51 am (UTC)Deinal...I think I have my own opinons about it. Some people are quite certain we're not in the same body although it's hard to disprove that we are. I think i'm lucky though cos (for the most part) we all learned that we're on the same team really early.
no subject
Date: 2004-02-16 09:30 am (UTC)2. No, we have no one at present who's in denial about our being multiple, although one of our main fronters used to write us off as imaginary friends. Your logical group member is in denial about it very likely because nearly all her information about plurality has been gotten out of books and perhaps web pages promoting the Wilburian theory of multiplicity.
The popular literature, as well as some of the so-called serious, scholarly texts, invariably follow this pattern, feature stories of the exotic and dysfunctional, and are probably spiced up a good deal for publication. You don't fit the pattern laid down by these tomes, so it's likely she's thinking that therefore you cannot be multiple.
Multiplicity, as others in this thread have pointed out, is much more than what mental health professionals have made of us.
3. Most of us do not front. There are about 20 to 25 people who will (in our case, we're not splits). In our case, it means that they want to stay away from the front because they have better things to do. There are many reasons for people not fronting which don't involve evil motivations.
It is possible that the people in your system who hide will be more amenable to being found -- even if they still don't wish to front -- if they know they are not feared as bearing the seeds of secret evil.
4. Yes, of course. Being multiple does not necessarily mean the group involves irrational persons any more than evil ones.
http://www.kitsune.cx/blackbirds/layman/
no subject
Date: 2004-02-16 12:34 pm (UTC)can't speak for everyne, but we hear each other talk and have convo's with each other all the time. It depends if when we're "out" we pay attention to what goes on inside.
If we dont' pay attention, we hear nothing. Simple.
"Does anyone have somebody in their head that is in denial about them being a multiple? For example explaining shifts and alters as attention getting devices caused by sleep deprivation. We have never been abused in a ‘conventional’ manner when we where little, so she says we have no reason to be a multiple. This person in my head is very logical. What are logical reasons to prove that theory wrong? - W***"
Did many years ago. They finally were convinced when they realized no one would call him by his proper name, only the bodys.
"Does anyone else have splits that do not front and will hide if looked for? Why does this happen? What does this mean? Does it mean that we have hidden parts that are likely to do something evil at the worst possible time? - L**"
Not at present but I know of an mpd who does. Their reasons to hide are numerous but usually fear & abuse are the main reasons for their not coming out.
"Is there such a thing as a multiple that will not randomly lash out and hurt people that are close to them? - A****"
Heh We don't do that. Our Protector was a dark (a sort of semi-evil person) before recently...shrugs. A sociopath basically. She's now more or less alot better. She no longer wants to hurt innocent ppl b/c She's angry or hurting. That took a gender change & alot of work on Hyr part though. heh... Not so innocent ppl, otoh, heh... um watch out. She's still able to fight & defend Our system quite handily tyvm. ;)
no subject
Date: 2004-02-16 02:15 pm (UTC)"We have never been abused in a ‘conventional’ manner when we where little, so she says we have no reason to be a multiple." Why is "a reason" necessary? This body was never abused as a small child, and I/we were "switchy" even in toddlerhood. Apparently a lot of people are naturally multiple. It's even conceivable that the people who supposedly become multiple because of abuse would have been just as multiple if they had not been abused.
"Does anyone else have splits that do not front and will hide if looked for?" I have to tell you, "splits" is a derogatory term. I have no "splits". I do have two 'brothers' who share this body with me, and have on occasion had 'guests'. One of my 'brothers' has issues about corporeality, though he's been working on them - it's hard for him to get past his awareness that this body is so different from his own, and he is particularly squicked by its femaleness, so he is generally reluctant to take form. He has occasional bouts of severe brooding, and sometimes cold rages wherein he would very much like to hurt people, but he doesn't act on them, and is ashamed afterwards for having wanted to. On his bad days he believes himself to be evil; no one who knows him believes it.
His twin loves being corporeal, and takes the helm for part of every day, but has communication issues (which he is also working on) so he usually only "fronts" when he won't have to deal with people. He has sometimes done dangerous things either on impulse or because he didn't realize they were dangerous, but he has never harmed anyone else or acted with hurtful intentions, and the only person he ever really gets mad at is his twin.
Have had a few seriously unstable 'guests' over the years, and one notable one who was both extremely powerful and basically amoral, who stayed for nine years and caused a whole lot of chaos. That whole experience turned out to be both positive and necessary in the long run, but it sure wasn't much fun (except sometimes for her, I guess) at the time: a prime example of what happens when you call up that which you cannot put down. I wouldn't call her "evil", though... she is/was very complex. She wasn't "hidden" either - ha, far from.
I'm the one who "fronts" when there are people to be dealt with, and I don't randomly lash out at them. I would say I am pretty clear and polite in letting people know where my boundaries are, and if a person repeatedly trespasses, I'd generally rather put up better fences than blast them with the shotgun, as it were. I don't intentionally trespass on others' boundaries - sometimes it's not clear where they are, but if I'm told I have done so, I back off and don't do it again. If I lash out at someone, it is definitely not "randomly" - it's because they have chosen to ignore my clear warnings and attempts to avoid or limit contact with them.
no subject
Date: 2004-02-16 05:16 pm (UTC)I don't hear the others thinking, or talking among themselves, but we can and do talk with each other often (though not all of them will speak to me), and so I really only hear them when they want to be heard.
Does anyone have somebody in their head that is in denial about them being a multiple?
Just me, ha. No anymore though.
Does anyone else have splits that do not front and will hide if looked for?
I also don't like the term "splits" - my others didn't split off from me, they're just "there". But yes, there are others who don't front, or don't front often, and stay hidden. Mostly the hidden ones are just shy.
Is there such a thing as a multiple that will not randomly lash out and hurt people that are close to them?
Of course! There are many people who Shi would like to "deal with", but never anyone close to us, and she never acts out anyway. Just because she's a Goddess of Death doesn't mean she can just do away with whomever she pleases ^_~
no subject
Date: 2004-02-16 05:38 pm (UTC)I think the closest I have to someone who's in denial is that Darkhawk isn't sure she's a person; we started out thinking of her (before we had any sense of being multiple) as the facade that we kept up front to protect the "real me" from the outside world. She's also a pretty rabid skeptic, which can be weird in religious situations, but I haven't noticed it in plural-related ones. (As a group we tend to think of plurality as the best current theory or model to explain the processes of our mind; I suspect that particular way of putting it is hers.)
Some of us front very rarely, or only in very specific situations, or essentially never alone. Basic feeling I have on it is that learning who's in there and what sorts of things are liable to have them out is a good thing for the overall health of the system -- I discovered one of me a while back by suddenly realising that someone was in front who I'd never consciously noticed before. (Back when I named all of us she wasn't terribly active in my life; I wasn't old enough.)
As to randomly lashing out -- when we lash out it is deliberate and with intent, not random. Heh.
Darkhawk wrote most of this so we'll use her icon, even if we are talking about her in the third person.
no subject
Date: 2004-02-16 07:08 pm (UTC)We did have a few members who didn't believe they were multiple. They started to believe when we started interacting with other multiples and looking up information on it. One of the members learned to deal and is working well with it. Another went off and we never heard from her again. I'm sorry I can't give any logical explination for any of it but we don't classify ourselves as a trauma/abuse splitted multiple-type person. I don't think there are reasons why someone is how they are. They just are how they are.... singleton, multiple, gay, straight, whatever.
We don't have any splits, but we do have a member of our system who will run off and hide if someone wants him to do anything with the outside world. If he thinks anyone's looking for him he won't come back for quite some time. What does it mean? For him it means that he's shy and doesn't want to be responsible for anything in the outside world. While I can't tell you that you don't have any evil parts that might surface to do bad things, I find that people are generally all right, and all the members of our system are just people... all different and some a little more moral than others but I don't think being multiple automatically means you have someone/thing evil lurking inside.
Is there such a thing as a multiple that will not randomly lash out and hurt people that are close to them?
I'm really glad you put an explination to this one in the comments because that question worries me. We've never lashed out at anyone (except verbally to jerks who deserved it), especially at anyone close to us or to any certain member.
I hope another round of answers helped you.
-Sug
no subject
Date: 2004-02-17 01:24 am (UTC)That is very likely, given how my brain works.
Re: I think I need to clarify parts of my questions.
Date: 2004-02-17 01:44 am (UTC)That is true. The problem was not that they where violent. The problem is that we let them close enough to hurt the parts most singletons would either never see, or would see after a long period of time in which we could learn to trust them. I got blind sided by the switching. It was the first time I met another multiple. If the last time you speak to someone they are friendly, you expect the same next time. Not true for multiples and not really true for singletons, but we do not think we grasp that concept when we are under the age of 16. Also our kids tend to trust other people’s littles, not realizing that they will shift without warning, sometimes at external stimuli, like a phone call. This is our own naiveté getting me into trouble. - The Narrator
You're okay, you're doing fine. Don't be so hard on yourself. Hey, at least you're *asking*, rather than just sitting back wondering. Asking takes all kinds of courage.
Thanks. It is weird for me. A lot of times we hear things here that we know on a large scale, but what is not clear to individual people in here. I feel like I am asking stupid questions, just to hear that there are other people with similar experiences. - W***
Although every time I post here parts of us feel like we are walking over to a crowded table in a H.S. cafeteria full of people who have significantly more interesting things to do then to talk to us. So thanks for the encouragement. - Kait (I get to sign my real name, since no one in our ‘real’ life know/remembers that I exist.)
no subject
Date: 2004-02-17 01:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-02-17 01:51 am (UTC)We did this one two years ago; nobody truly believes that we are not a multiple in here. Although L** thinks she is crazy for letting herself slip into this state. She has been around for about 8 years. W*** has been around for at least 14. So L** is sulking after the rude awakening that basically boiled down to, she is no longer in full control. - The Narrator
no subject
Date: 2004-02-17 01:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-02-17 01:55 am (UTC)Good Description. This is a common occurrence in here. I wouldn’t have thought to put it this way. *smiles*
no subject
Date: 2004-02-17 02:07 am (UTC)That sounds about right. She is an engineer, so if you can’t prove it, it doesn’t exist. I think she was having a hard enough time with magic and otherkin, without this piled on top. To be honest we were not very nice either. We would not let her sleep for a long time because we were having nightmares and I think it drove her a little more nuts. We could have been better.
It is possible that the people in your system who hide will be more amenable to being found -- even if they still don't wish to front -- if they know they are not feared as bearing the seeds of secret evil.
Except when we started fronting we were not listening to the adults. So they think we will misbehave and cause problems at work or with their lovers. We got into trouble so now we are hiding.
Also if we are afraid of multiples and we are a multiple, then we should hide from ourselves.
- W*** (Expressing the general opinion the 9 or younger crowd.)
Re:
Date: 2004-02-17 02:10 am (UTC)In our case, this was our primary front for 8 years or so, we were using her nickname for a name, so she had a constant trigger.
no subject
Date: 2004-02-17 02:15 am (UTC)I’m sorry I did not realize this. I was using this term to mean alter, walking, or analog. I did not realize it was offensive. I suppose I can see how it is. I’ll try to alter my typing pattern. I apologize in advance if I slip. - W***
no subject
Date: 2004-02-17 02:18 am (UTC)Sorry. We use alter at split interchangeably sometimes. Bad habit coupled with low self esteem. Usually to mean: not a walk-in or analog.
no subject
Date: 2004-02-17 02:23 am (UTC)In a roundabout way this may be part of L**’s problem. She is worried that if she fully admits multiplicity. She will possibly be turned of. (We can not and would not do that.) She started out as a front 8 years ago. Now she is defiantly more then that. Unfortunately there is still a mater of being a skeptical control freak. - The Narrator
no subject
Date: 2004-02-17 02:40 am (UTC)That makes a lot of sense to us. Thank you.
Re:
Date: 2004-02-17 11:10 am (UTC)El *waves to Elenbarathi* :P
no subject
Date: 2004-02-17 11:45 am (UTC)Is L willing to accept "This is the best-fit theory/metaphor/simulation/concept for describing what's going on; if I come up with a better theory to explain this I'll adopt that"? That's basically how DH deals with plurality.
-- Weaver
Re:
Date: 2004-02-17 02:15 pm (UTC)Re:
Date: 2004-02-17 02:18 pm (UTC)Well, actually my 'brothers' may be "splits" of one another - there is some evidence to suggest that - but if they are, then the splitting apparently took place in some different life/world/whatever. There's no way to tell, and it's pretty much moot anyway - whatever they once may have been, they're two separate people now.
I don't deny the fact that multiplicity sometimes happens by means of splitting, but I do think "split" is a derogatory term. Notice that people don't commonly call themselves "splits", even though logically, if one half of a pair is a "split", the other must be one too.
Re:
Date: 2004-02-18 01:59 pm (UTC)~Kay
no subject
Date: 2004-02-18 02:18 pm (UTC)Do all multiples hear voices in their heads? We were wondering about this. We almost never ‘hear’ anything. We tend to just switch and often know what everyone else is thinking, but not because we had a conversation, but because we just know. Do you have to hear voices in your head if you are a multiple? What does it mean if you do or don’t? - L**
Depends what you mean by "hearing voices". We can hear each other talking on the Inside, and some of Us have the ability to express/share thoughts without verbalizing them on the Inside, a sort of internal telepathy I guess.
Does anyone have somebody in their head that is in denial about them being a multiple? For example explaining shifts and alters as attention getting devices caused by sleep deprivation. We have never been abused in a ‘conventional’ manner when we where little, so she says we have no reason to be a multiple. This person in my head is very logical. What are logical reasons to prove that theory wrong? - W***
Not anymore. At first some of Us were doubtful and in denial, kind of trying to make excusses "oh I'm just imagining all this, these 'alters' are just people I made up" etc. The best way to prove doubters in your system wrong is to make a point of being there and being real. Finally there was no denying what was in plain sight.
Does anyone else have splits that do not front and will hide if looked for? Why does this happen? What does this mean? Does it mean that we have hidden parts that are likely to do something evil at the worst possible time? - L**
Some of the people in Our system just don't really like being Out or feel any need to be Out. Some are frightened, some were created to not be Out. Some just aren't social or communicative. No, it doesn't neccessarily mean that they are likely to do something evil. Don't assume the worst of what you don't understand. It's not healthy for your system. ;)
Is there such a thing as a multiple that will not randomly lash out and hurt people that are close to them? - A****
Absolutely. Some things aren't caused by being multiple, like lashing out. There are singletons who lash out, and there are individuals who happen to be part of a multiple system who lash out. Just like there are singletons who are shy by nature, and members of multiple systems who are shy by nature. Anything that's possible personality wise of a singleton is possible in a system member because system members are just as much people too, just sharing one body instead.
Hope this helps :)
~Ash, BrokenWings, several others adding input
Re:
Date: 2004-02-20 09:17 pm (UTC)Elmira
Re:
Date: 2004-02-20 09:25 pm (UTC)Weaver and I can get a good theoretical conversation going occasionally, but it's best if I can find someone outside the system to talk to. (Inside our head we tend to wind up going around in circles a lot.)
I tend to default to front in a lot of situations because it's pretty difficult to faze me emotionally, and we've got a lot of history with needing to protect the system as a whole from an indifferent-to-hostile world. Putting someone out there who has an analytical or "And?" attitude helps with a lot of it. (Except when I lose my control. We're better at that now that I'm half-convinced that I'm real, because it means we can deal with me upset that I've lost control rather than degenerating into chaos&confusion).
Re:
Date: 2004-02-21 11:13 am (UTC)