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multiplicity_archives2005-06-29 04:37 pm
wolfcubbie.livejournal.com) wrote in multiplicity_archives2005-06-29 04:37 pm
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quick question...
Has anyone on this community offered help to the littles, or ASKED them questions, concerning the way they talk? I mean, I've been reading the posts here, and decided to make a journal so I could comment on them.
It really bothers me that people are getting so frustrated, uncomfortable, and generally pissed off at the littles' posts. First, let me say, why can't the littles post too? they have something to say like everyone else. And I noticed, they have sense enough(just like I did when I was little)to know when to post in their personal journal, and when to post in the communities, just need some help getting their thoughts across...
WHY WON'T ANYONE OFFER THEM THE HELP THAT YOU PEOPLE SEEM TO THINK THEY NEED?
yeah, I know sometimes lilspeak is fake, I know that. But, sometimes it's not. and no one else seems to know the difference.
I do. I'm gonna make a new community. I'm gonna ask Rick to help(because he's out more than me) like he helped me spell and LEARN TO SPELL when I was a little kid. I'm gonna make a community for littles that are frustrated at bigs not taking them seriously. For littles that want to be heard, but can't seem to get their thoughts across right. For littles who want help spelling better, and talking better on the internet. I'll let you know the name when I do it.
cubbie
Pack Collective
It really bothers me that people are getting so frustrated, uncomfortable, and generally pissed off at the littles' posts. First, let me say, why can't the littles post too? they have something to say like everyone else. And I noticed, they have sense enough(just like I did when I was little)to know when to post in their personal journal, and when to post in the communities, just need some help getting their thoughts across...
WHY WON'T ANYONE OFFER THEM THE HELP THAT YOU PEOPLE SEEM TO THINK THEY NEED?
yeah, I know sometimes lilspeak is fake, I know that. But, sometimes it's not. and no one else seems to know the difference.
I do. I'm gonna make a new community. I'm gonna ask Rick to help(because he's out more than me) like he helped me spell and LEARN TO SPELL when I was a little kid. I'm gonna make a community for littles that are frustrated at bigs not taking them seriously. For littles that want to be heard, but can't seem to get their thoughts across right. For littles who want help spelling better, and talking better on the internet. I'll let you know the name when I do it.
cubbie
Pack Collective
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We would enjoy a community like this. Some saw the post as negatively impacting, making the littles feel like "morons" and that they're not good enough. But it also made them realize they are smart and can learn to spell better. Two very separate feelings going on which has suddenly become a huge issue.
It pissed off me -and some others- when it appeared many were ATTACKING the littles about their spelling. This is a multiple community and there are littles roaming around. As this community always states, we're not all the same so not all the littles are going to type the way other's littles do. This system accepted lilspeak, they used it, and it was never a problem. Then people went and said "it's fake" and openly attacked one of the posts our littles made here. Does it make you feel big to attack a little? It made our littles cry atfirst thinking they'd never be accepted anywhere. _Really pissed me off_
Yes now they're learning and happier about the process but the reasons for why they are doing it is wrong. It's to fit in to a mold others are making. Fuck fitting into this mold. Now they are aiming for perfection and get down at every mistake they make. I personally liked them feeling comfortable with their typing but they want to damn much to be accepted by people here. It pisses me off that they're going to change themselves to fit better in this place.
I know Jayden was all for it, but I am _not_. As someone posted before for us, it has the system torn in two over the situation. We look forward to this community Cubbie. The littles could use a positive attutide on this, as could I. Thank you.
Kaden
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Give me a break. I didn't "make your littles cry", because unless they're reading on an 8th-grade level or better, they couldn't have made it through the first paragraph of any of my posts. If their own 'bigs' chose to read my posts to them, that is their choice and their responsibility, not mine.
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I do agree that there is some frustration about how they post though. But I think mostly the talk has been about that generally and not about shutting kids up completely.
I *do* know why I don't ask kids why they talk the way they do - because I wouldn't ask real life kids "why did you pick 'ain't' up from your aunt!!" It's not their responsibility to answer that kind of question.
It seems to me kind of mean to go and ask a little multiple-system-kid something like "you typed double 'a's and 'i's and that's not something a kid your age would do if they had their own body so why do you?"
I think most kids would rightly say "I don't know. But I don't like you!" in response. Which - I know you're 12, which is more pre-teen than kid, but that's kind of the reaction you're having.
I am admiring that your response to that anger is to start a community to change things - good for you.
For the help - I would pretty much never offer to help another system's kid unless specifically asked. To me that's being rude to the adults in the system, who presumably are the ones that can decide if help is needed/wanted and do something about it.
Although actually in another community I did point someone at this link, which is good for spelling:
http://www.eduplace.com/kids/hmsv/smg/
But I only point it out 'cause you asked (and the same where I posted it before). I'm not personally *bothered* much by either poor spelling or Lilspeak, although sometimes I do skip those posts if I'm tired.
But I do think it's good for systems to talk about the choice to encourage or discourage lilspeak and talk about it.
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dude, my parents and teachers and general adults that i knew asked me those kinds of questions ALL THE TIME when i was little... like, "do you know what that word means?" or "you should say 'can't' instead of 'cain't'" etc... while you are techincally not their parent, you are still a guardian and it actually IS your responsibility to teach them... i mean, assuming that you want to teach them... *shrug* i'm just assuming that you do, but if you don't, that's fine too, i was just assuming...
and as far as pointing it out to other systems kids, you're right, it's not your "responsibility", but cubbie didn't start the community out of "responsibility" or because he was angry, (which you assumed incorrectly), he started it because he wants to help those that ask for it... to me, it sounds like you are kinda saying that "it's not MY job to teach my kid sex-ed, they'll learn that from school"... i know that's an extreme example, but i think you can understand what i'm saying...
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I'm actually saying "it's not my job to teach sex ed to *other* people's kids." Which I think is true. Saying that X system's kids should be managed by X system's adults is not the same as saying to learn it in school - it's saying to let _that system_ decide what's a priority, and when.
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However, we encourage everyone to learn to speak, read and write standard English.
It seems to me that the people who should be "helping the littles" are the other members of their own systems.
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The only reason I haven't come down publicly on either side of the lilspeak issue is that it is not appropriate for me to do so as an admin. For purposes of this community, it does not matter what I think.
However, while I shall make no rule concerning lilspeak, I again encourage all members, multiples, singlets, medians, children, angels, aliens, whatever, to learn and use standard English, and/or employ a standard English translator.
My thoughts on the matter
If kids want to use "lilspeak", that's their perogative. IMHO it's up to the others in their system to assist them at spelling or typing properly, noone else is really in a position to do it. It is my feeling that I cannot confront a kid from another system and go "I'm going to help you learn how to type properly" because it isn't my place to do so. I am not a person who feels it to be right to intervene in the goings-on of another system without being specifically asked.
That said, if kids want to be taken seriously in an adult world or on communities where predominantly adult issues are discussed, they do need to behave in a more adult fashion. I don't presume to judge wheither someone is "faking it" or not regardless of how they type, one member of our system has difficulty typing and spelling, mostly because she can't coordinate this body's fingers on the keys properly. However, she has acknowledged that if she wants to speak to adults and be understood, she needs to make an effort to come across clearly. I believe that everyone needs to do that, regardless of wheither they are a kid in a multiple system or not. Children in the real world learn that lesson at a young age, they are taught that in school and by their parents. Likewise, children in a multiple system will need to learn the same lesson from the adults in their system.
There will always be those who will assume that kids using "lilspeak" are faking it, I can understand where their argument comes from since virtually everyone who uses it types in the exact same manner (using words such as "mi" or "dat" to replace "my" or "that", etc), making it seem more like a common jargon rather than something unique to a specific system. And such misspellings are different from the misspellings that regular children go through, making it seem more artificial.
People are generally squeamish about confronting kids to ask them why they type that way - most people will probably agree that in today's society, confronting a child who isn't related to you about something they are doing that annoys you is frowned upon, making the adult doing so seem like a bully or control freak. That is more or less why people don't address the children doing so directly, is because they don't wish to start a fight when the other people in the kid's system knee-jerk and rush to their defense, starting a flamewar that does nothing positive. It is pushed, constantly, that "kids need protection" and therefore kids are generally left alone to be dealt with by the others in their particular system.
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Because saying "Look, your typing is an ass to read, ask somebody in your system to help you" is *rude*. You wouldn't say it to a severely dyslexic person.
The main gripe of that other post, I think, was really obviously fake lilspeak. Things that are just not the way a singlet kid spells, stuff that just looks forced. Along with system members who don't by default help their kids.
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Of course. There are quite a few adults in our system who spend lots of time with the children and help them out with things. Now that our system communication is at a better level, our kids have made great improvement. However, we do not feel it is our place to interfere with other systems' children unless specifically asked - that is the responsibility of their adult system members.
It really bothers me that people are getting so frustrated, uncomfortable, and generally pissed off at the littles' posts. First, let me say, why can't the littles post too? they have something to say like everyone else.
I don't think anyone is getting frustrated, uncomfortable, or pissed off by the fact that children are posting in the community. Rather, the adoption of "lilspeak" is what gets under the skin. No one said that children couldn't or shouldn't post, and no one even said they couldn't post in "lilspeak" - just that it might help anyone, old or young, to strive towards learning how to type in correct English when posting.
WHY WON'T ANYONE OFFER THEM THE HELP THAT YOU PEOPLE SEEM TO THINK THEY NEED?
Again, that's not the general public's responsibility, or really their business to butt in like that. Those adults in the system who are in charge of the children should take care of that obligation. However, I've already seen a lot of the commenters in the other thread offering help and suggestions when asked, so I don't think it's fair to say that no one is willing to help children learn to spell and type.
yeah, I know sometimes lilspeak is fake, I know that. But, sometimes it's not. and no one else seems to know the difference.
If you haven't already read this post (http://www.livejournal.com/community/multiplicity/288351.html), you probably should. There is a difference between lilspeak and errors in spelling and grammar. No one is saying that when kids make normal spelling mistakes that it's fake - but actual lilspeak is so obviously contrived and deviant from all patterns of learning in children that there is no possible way it can be real. The other problem with lilspeak is that while the spelling is all wonky and unadvanced, the rest of the sentence structure is so advanced that it doesn't match the intellectual level of the spelling. Anyway, just read that, the author does a much better job at explaining the difference than I can.
I'm gonna make a new community. I'm gonna ask Rick to help(because he's out more than me) like he helped me spell and LEARN TO SPELL when I was a little kid.
Good luck with your community. That's great that you have an adult in your system who helped you learn to spell - I think all system children should be lucky enough to have adults like that in their own systems to help them.
~Adryssa
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Precisely. And if someone is writing in a blatantly-fake style, I think it is reasonable to question their veracity in other matters. There are people faking multiplicity - anyone who thinks there's not is either hopelessly naive, or brand-spanking-new to the Internet and hasn't yet figured out that there's all kinds of fakers online (I've even known of three who tried to fake their own realtime deaths and got caught doing it.)
As for "safety" - my own kid will be 16 in a few months, and she's still not allowed to chat online with people she doesn't know in person, because I don't think it's wise to let children interact with adult strangers whose characters and intentions cannot be known. Therefore I have to wonder about all these people howling "OMG my littles aren't SAFE here!" - I mean, really, whoever claimed that the Internet was safe for any child? Get a clue: it's not, never has been, and probably never will be. It's particularly not safe for children who hang out in adult forums.
The charge that I've hurt their poor wee feelings is actually causing me a good deal of sardonic amusement, because it proves my point: if these 'littles' were able to read my posts, which were written in a complex adult style that damn few grade-schoolers could comprehend, then clearly they've got the skills to write something approximating standard English. Can't have it both ways.
The charge that I've "said that their littles don't exist" causes me to wonder if the people making it really are morons and/or on crack. It's either that, or they've got some vested interest in pretending they think I said that, when they know perfectly well I didn't. That would, of course, constitute another instance of fakery. I won't hazard a guess as to what that vested interest might be - merely note that there are some who seem to have gotten a lot of mileage out of "OMG my poor, poor littles are so traumatized and terrified!" in terms of extra attention from those close to them.
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